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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Somewhere in the Appalachians.
    Posts
    3,592
    First, I would say that morality has little or nothing to do with winning in battle. One should do what benefits them, given that the thing doesn't cause a pyyrhic victory.



    Most here would agree that cocaine shouldn't be legalized for common use, yet, liquid cocain is a common anesthesia during eye surgery. My point being, that these types of things, when put in the right hands and used responsibly, can be a significant force multiplier. Are steroids and blood doping et al moral? Sure, as long as you don't roid rage and beat your wife and kids, or kill a bunch of kids etc.

    Only 1/4 of that anonymous survey admitted to juicing, but those were only the guys who weren't worried that the survey wasn't really anonymous. The number is likely closer to 40% or 50% in the Rangers, and probably significantly much higher in SOF teams. Never mind that other countries use steroids as an official or unofficial policy.... anyone who's seen videos of chinese soldiers probably realizes that Chinese men don't typically have that much muscle mass. I have many friends both civilian and military who juice, and aside from a significant amount of noticeable muscle mass, they aren't assholes who try to beat everyone up.

    Overall, I think steroids could be a potentially useful tool for our military. They would increase all the attributes we want to see in a soldier, and given that the right drugs are given under medically monitored conditions, few of the side effects would be encountered. It would also probably decrease the incident of long term injury as well, thus decreasing the amount of care soldiers would need after they leave the service... which would save us money in the long run as a nation.

    As for the police using them, I think there are significantly more and higher political hurtles there than with the military. That being said, the majority of drug tests don't test for steroids unless it's specifically requested... which is why so many in the military get away with it.

    EDIT: My comment was geared towards the article, but I don't have a problem with anyone at all juicing. So long as it's done properly. Especially when men get older, I see a lot of benefits.
    Last edited by H60DoorGunner; 06-05-2018 at 09:08 AM.
    Isaiah 54:17

    Deus dea traballo, dixo o enterrador.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    3,180
    No moral issues except for, say, Olympic athletes.

    Looking hard at juicing as my beatup 64 year old frame increasingly needs maintenance.

    Not intending to grow old gracefully. Once my dad started relying on a cane--without really needing one--he was gone in a year.

    We have talked about mindset here before. It is non-negotiable. Why not use science, too?
    Last edited by Papa; 06-05-2018 at 10:09 AM.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 1, 11. And a wakeup.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Palmer, Alaska
    Posts
    6,991
    I have been debating the question for over a year now. In that time, I've read a few books on the subject. I've also perused online discussions, blogs, and forums, but much of the information is from such questionable sources that I find it not particularly useful. Some of the Bro Science experts know all about steroid dosing, but they don't know anything else about medicine, which causes me to hesitate in accepting their advice even when I can clearly see the amount of thought and work that has gone into it.

    The benefits of steroid use are undeniable. My questions have centered on the negative side-effects; the risks. These are the possible negatives that I have researched:

    1) Bone plate disruption,
    2) Roid Rage,
    3) Male pattern baldness, acne, body hair,
    4) Gynecomastia ("bitch tit"),
    5) Hypogonadism (shrunken testicles),
    6) Heart problems,
    7) Dependency,
    8) Temporary benefits.

    Bone plate disruption isn't something I would have to worry about. But anyone under 30 should pause and consider it. Age 25 is sufficient for upwards of 90% of the population (and that number might be closer to 99%), but there are a few people who aren't fully grown even in their late 20s. The long-term consequences here are significant, and a 20-year-old is running at high testosterone anyway. To my eye, the risks of steroid use outweigh the benefits for anyone under 25. Professional athletes may choose to take the risk, but they are trading long-term health benefits for short-term performance gains. That's not my game. I'm in it for the long haul.

    Roid Rage is a hoax. It's not real. Ben Affleck makes one overly-dramatic after-school special and suddenly the world believes that his bad acting is representative of actual science. Steroids increase testosterone, which increases male characteristics, and one of those characteristics is aggression. An increase in aggression is not synonymous with a loss of control. Many of us here could be rightly characterized as hyper-aggressive, but we are not in a "rage." Aggression is a driving force; a motivator. So steroids could actually improve your performance in business. The Roid Rage myth needs to die.

    Male pattern baldness, acne, and body hair are all possible consequences of steroid use. You probably won't go any more bald, but you might go bald faster than you ordinarily would have without steroids. Personally, I don't care. Before my wife was my wife; when she was just a college freshman, I learned that her idea of a super sexy man was Sean Connery. She doesn't have a problem with baldness. Acne would be troublesome, but it seems to be sporadic; not consistent; and it isn't the end of the world. My response to the possibility of increased body hair is probably the opposite of the current generation. I am not a man who is going to shave his arms. As a child, I wanted Tom Selleck's hairy chest. If steroids turned me into a wookie, I would not be bothered.

    Gynecomastia is definitely something I would want to avoid. The best method of avoiding it is to monitor for it and to take an aromatase inhibitor. That will prevent excess testosterone from being converted into estrogen, which is the cause of gynecomastia. Risks increase as dosage increases. Most of the guys who get gynecomastia are taking doses that would be substantial for a horse. Moderate use exposes you to minimal risk. But you should also have aromatase inhibitors on hand and ready to go, so that you can use them at the first sign of a problem.

    Hypogonadism becomes more and more of a concern as cycles extend in length. You can take additional drugs to try to prevent/minimize hypogonadism. I'm not sure how much of a problem this really is for me. At this stage in life, my testicles are really just decorative. If they were both suddenly missing, I'm sure my wife would notice, but I'm not sure she would care. My real concerns on this issue relate to dependency.

    Heart problems are sometimes mentioned as a possible consequence, but there is insufficient scientific data to actually show a correlation. The few, isolated cases of heavy steroid users with heart problems could have been from people who already had heart problems. The logic is there, though, to have a concern. The heart is a muscle, and steroids grow your muscles. If your heart grows in size, not just strength, what does that mean for your health? This concern is valid, but seems to only be applicable to people taking huge doses. It could also be of greater concern to young (under 25) users, but I would already discourage those guys from using steroids for other reasons.

    Dependency is the real concern. I do not want to become addicted to the needle. I don't want to end up in a position where I will basically turn into a woman if I can't continue to get my shots. When you add testosterone artificially, your body recognizes the additional material and stops producing its own testosterone. Why waste the energy if you don't need it? The same thing would happen in your pancreas if a non-diabetic started administering insulin after meals. As with many of the other concerns, risk increases as cycles increase in length. And there is a down time of 2-4 weeks after a cycle when your testosterone levels will drop, because you stopped injecting and your body has to spool up again to start producing its own. That period of time could suck.

    Steroids are also criticized for being only a temporary solution. Once you stop juicing, you shrink back to being Bruce Banner. I only partially accept this criticism. At the elite levels, where guys are juicing to the point that they are maintaining a physique that is impossible without steroids, I accept this. But for myself, I contemplate steroids as basically a short-cut. By reducing my recovery time and increasing growth potential, I could achieve physical goals in a matter of months that would ordinarily take years. But my goals are within the range of what my genetics would allow for naturally. So I'm not sure that I would actually shrink or lose strength post-cycle. I may be able to maintain the gains.

    At 23, you are riding high on natural testosterone and you should just focus on putting in the work. At the opposite end of the spectrum, when you are 70 the risks of complete dependency increase. At that stage in life, though, you may be willing to accept the addiction. I'd rather be a strong and active addict than a frail and weak septuagenarian. There is another significant time marker--at some point, you will effectively lose the ability to increase your strength naturally, and the goal becomes maintaining what you have for as long as possible. The more strength you have before entering that stage, the better. A principal question for me has been, How close am I to the point that I will be unable to increase in strength? How short is the window for improvement? If you were butting up against that marker, it might make sense to use a short-cut to increase gains before you got there.

    Ultimately, I have concluded that I have enough years of improvement remaining that steroids are not necessary for me to achieve the maximum that my genetic potential allows for. That doesn't necessarily mean that I would not run a cycle. Shortcuts are still advantageous. Shortcuts are not cheating. If I could find a safe way to increase my wealth faster, I would not turn it down. I do not embrace the Puritanical notion that the work is the reward. My goal is fitness and strength, not more hours in the gym. So I have no burning need to use steroids, but I am still open to the possibility should it arise.

    If I ever choose to use steroids, my preference would be to do so unlawfully. Yes, it can be done through a doctor. But I would probably just get the steroids on my own and go to a doctor to monitor my own administration. That's assuming I could find someone to sell them to me. I do kind of look like a narc.
    Virtute et Armis

  4. #14
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    8,484
    I donít see moral issues, even for the athletic applications. Itís a slippery slope not to allow performance enhancing chemicals. Does drinking Red Bull improve performance on some measurable level? Probably. But itís allowed. So the real question is: how much improvement/enhancement is acceptable? And thatís a stupid question.

    Where I sit, if somebody wants to trade future health for a temporary boost in performance, let them.
    LIVING > FIRED > JAIL > DEAD

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    KRG, HRO: Team Tactics 1/2, CRG, HRO: CQB/Team Tactics, Defensive Knife, TMCO


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    WOTU Since 2012


  5. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Third Coast
    Posts
    4,242
    Quote Originally Posted by LawDog View Post
    Hypogonadism becomes more and more of a concern as cycles extend in length. You can take additional drugs to try to prevent/minimize hypogonadism. I'm not sure how much of a problem this really is for me. At this stage in life, my testicles are really just decorative. If they were both suddenly missing, I'm sure my wife would notice, but I'm not sure she would care. My real concerns on this issue relate to dependency.

    c.
    Ive got a family member that is on a pretty regular cycle. Dude is well over six feet tall and masses around 270 with no visible fat. One day He tells me (because we discuss fitness and nutrition) "Dude the roids are making my balls shrink" So I tell him " Be happy, it will make your cock look bigger" . You just gotta find the upside ;)
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    8,484
    Quote Originally Posted by LawDog View Post
    At this stage in life, my testicles are really just decorative.
    That may be the single most humorous thing Iíve ever read from you on this forum.
    LIVING > FIRED > JAIL > DEAD

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    WOTU Since 2012


  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    8,484
    Another substance to consider is stem cell therapy. If this research is valid (illegal in USA), so many injuries can be reverse by simply injecting adult (embryonic) stem cells into soft tissue near joints, and the muscles, tendons, etc., grow like theyíre 17 years old again.
    LIVING > FIRED > JAIL > DEAD

    DISCIPLINA EST LIBERTATEM
    KRG, HRO: Team Tactics 1/2, CRG, HRO: CQB/Team Tactics, Defensive Knife, TMCO


    T
    WOTU Since 2012


  8. #18
    I have rolled on one, maybe two, drug-related deaths that were not associated with either alcohol, tobacco, or sugar. One of the two outliers was associated with illegal steroids.

    I'm an EMT, not a forensic pathologist. Maybe there was some other reason a perfectly healthy, fairly young, guy with no medical history coded at oh-dark-hundred after a year or so of juicing. Sure...

    Not for me right now but never say never. In any case, got no issue, moral or otherwise, with any brother who this makes sense for. But please, please, get a doc in the loop, one way or another.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    1,103
    The benefits are irrefutable, the only negatives, I've actually seen from users I know, were only from abuse, extended use, or improper cycling. Greatly decreased recovery time, increased strength, aggression, or increased aggression I see as positives. When IO was younger and competing I got a kick out of beating 80% of those on the juice so I never used them, but now that I'm nearly 40 years older, I would sure like too! I just can't find a doctor to prescribe them, and I don't want to go to the gym dealer, if I could find one...

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    800
    Using steroids to keep T levels between 700-1000 for health benefits is a different issue than utilizing them from a mass/body building perspective. Under supervision/proper use, either are safe. Just like many things in life, abuse is normally dangerous.

    I'm 50 and a couple years ago, through research, discovered I had thyroid issues and therefore had a total T level of 340 I believe. Your thyroid is pretty much the center of it all, so I had to get that squared away first. The hard part was finding a doc who understood functional medicine, as I had "good" TSH levels, which is all your average doctor looks at. Why my thyroid is deficient, I'm not sure. It could be due to playing football, MA, a couple wrecks, chemicals in the environment, or who knows, but that was my big issue that needed addressed. Currently I take a natural dessicated thyroid med and unless I can find a "cure", there's not much I can do about it.

    I also take .3ml of T Cypionate, sub cutaneously, broken into two doses of .2ml on Sunday and .1 ml on Wednesday, along with .5 ml of HCG on Sunday. The HCG keeps your testicles producing T naturally and keeps them from shrinking. As was mentioned, you have monitor and control Estradiol levels, which if they are too high or too low, have the same affect as low T/hypo thyroid. Being lean and in shape reduces Estradiol levels, along with splitting T doses out over a week. You can also take an AI as needed if levels go up. I rarely need an AI, but occasionally require it. With me, it manifests a spike by sleep disturbance or a strong smell when I sweat.

    For me, I had no choice but to go this route, and I feel awesome. Im 50 years old, 5' 10", 180 lbs with around 10% body fat. I squat and DL double my BW, Sprint, do HIT conditioning, have plenty of energy, and sleep well. IMO you are much better prolonging supplementing until you have to, but with people like us, who value strength and aging well, and want to retain the ability to be physically capable as long as we can, it will most likely be inevitable at one time or another. From all the research I've done, there are a large number of benefits to keeping T levels between 700-1000. It is true some gifted individuals will never need it, but I wasn't one of them.

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