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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    5,453
    The AR pistol is cool. I have a couple, and I'm sure I will have some more in the future. But these days the things that get the most use by far are my PDW and Stakeout. (Not counting the EDC of course)
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Advanced Close Range Gunfighting - Nov 2-3 Mapleton, OR

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    UNited States
    Posts
    144
    What range do you need?

    What is the maximum "guaranteed death" range of 12 gauge Ammunition 2-3/4" 34 Pellets #4 buck?

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    7,782
    Use 00 buck, death range isn’t guaranteed with anything except maybe 50bmg or bigger. The biggest question would be, will your training support the platform to ensure hits on a man size target out to 20-30 yards while they are shooting back?

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Nearly Free State of Arizona
    Posts
    318
    I’m going to go with Brent on this. I have had an AR pistol in the vehicle for quite some time and do so now. However, after the shotgun course, I am convinced that the stakeout is a more appropriate choice for me and my situation. I’ll retire the AR pistol once my Tac-14 is fully converted over to a Stakeout by SI.

    As for 12 Ga #4 buckshot, it depends on the brand and how it patterns in your individual shotgun. I think of #4 for 12 yards and less. I think of 00 buckshot (Federal LE 8 pellet reduced recoil)as 18 yards and less. I think of 12 Ga Slug (Federal LE Reduced Recoil) as 75 yards or less (although I’m pretty solid with it out to 110-125 yards).
    “How can I shoot people? Shooting people is easy. It is the simple application of the fundamentals of marksmanship. The hard part is ensuring that I have the physical strength to prevail, the moral strength to know when it is right to kill, and the mental strength to articulate the aftermath such that I maintain my freedom while they experience what comes next in the afterlife.”

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    5,453
    Agree w CN’s range suggestions.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Advanced Close Range Gunfighting - Nov 2-3 Mapleton, OR

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Under the Black Flag
    Posts
    332
    I run the fed top flight buck and fed slug at work.

    With my Fakeout w slug sights I can headshot out to 15 and "work" center mass "no flyers" at 25 w the buck.

    In a real fight in a rural setting I also know with the top flight I can drop at least half the buckshot onto the tango at 50 yards... most cases it was one or two flyers.

    Not my first choice... but with the top flight ammo the range is extended.

    Slugs... you should be able to reach out to 100 depending on skill.

    The best thing about a gauge is its adaptability with different loads. Try them, test them... then train..
    Last edited by m48shooter; 05-12-2018 at 08:16 PM.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    118
    For indoors work I would choose something without deafening ear damage. Have you fired a short 223 before?

    Why not a PDW like an EVO scorpion?

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    NW Montana
    Posts
    66
    Perhaps not a legit reason, but I look at the value of the weapon. If it was stolen from the vehicle, how much would it hurt? My AR pistols and scorpion are well over the $1k mark. My shotgun, $400 or less.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,127
    Quote Originally Posted by Jsavik View Post
    Perhaps not a legit reason, but I look at the value of the weapon. If it was stolen from the vehicle, how much would it hurt? My AR pistols and scorpion are well over the $1k mark. My shotgun, $400 or less.
    This begs the question, is cost really the main concern when life and death are on the line? I mean, I hear what you're saying for sure, I'd much rather lose $400 than $1200. But if I know I'm going to a gun fight, I'm bringing the "best" gun I have access to. Regardless of cost.
    Last edited by georgeib; 12-04-2018 at 06:55 AM. Reason: Grammar
    "If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself." — Augustine

    "That upon which you set your heart and put your trust is your god." — Martin Luther

  10. #20
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    14,773
    Quote Originally Posted by georgeib View Post
    This begs the question, is cost really the main concern when life and death are on the line? I mean, I hear what you're saying for sure. I'd much rather lose $400 than $1200, but if I know I'm going to a gun fight, I'm bringing the "best" gun I have access to. Regardless of cost.
    Valid point about safety versus cost. This could have its own thread.

    You need to do your own risk analysis versus cost benefits. A lot of this is perception and state of mind over an issue of danger. Danger is defined as the immediate likelihood of serious injury or death. Hazard implies a lesser risk.
    Relative to a cancer risk for the general population EPA often sets a risk level of one case in million and a lesser risk as being ok. For some occupations and scenarios the government will would accept a much greater risk of say one in 10,000.
    The most important fact is very often it is impossible to make something absolutely safe. The smart person can manage risk to their advantage so the odds are more in your favor, but you are seldom absolutely safe.

    It is most important to account for all foreseeable factors and not to focus just on one danger. Below is an old fable of someone that tried engineer away a danger and still overlooked another fatal scenario.

    From Aesop's fables https://fablesofaesop.com/the-kings-...nted-lion.html
    A king, whose only son was fond of martial exercises, had a dream in which he was warned that his son would be killed by a lion. Afraid the dream should prove true, he built for his son a pleasant palace and adorned its walls for his amusement with all kinds of life-sized animals, among which was the picture of a lion. When the young Prince saw this, his grief at being thus confined burst out afresh, and, standing near the lion, he said: “O you most detestable of animals! through a lying dream of my father’s, which he saw in his sleep, I am shut up on your account in this palace as if I had been a girl: what shall I now do to you?’ With these words he stretched out his hands toward a thorn-tree, meaning to cut a stick from its branches so that he might beat the lion. But one of the tree’s prickles pierced his finger and caused great pain and inflammation, so that the young Prince fell down in a fainting fit. A violent fever suddenly set in, from which he died not many days later.

    Moral
    We had better bear our troubles bravely than try to escape them.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

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