INTERESTING ARTICLE ON KARATE HISTORY

[Brent Yamamoto]

Same with Kyokushin. It is the only legitimate full contact bare knuckle stuff and dates back to the sixties. (I have my share of hand injuries to show for it). But the flaw is that they do not allow strikes above the neck in competition. This of course to make it safer, but that is a sacrifice made for the sport. And it is a "mission creep" of sorts because the focus on head strikes is gradually reduced as the focus on the game is increased.

I always got in trouble when I'd spar with Kyokushin guys...I simply could not refrain from aiming at the head. And I was even trying not to, but conditioning is a real thing (a good thing in that instance).

In Kei Shin Kan we used to fight with Koshiki equipment. It's a compromise, the mask makes it hard to breath and see, and the body armor inhibits movement. But it did allow full power strikes while minimizing injury.

I know there were some Kyokushin off-shoots that only used the helmets, while allowing full power contact everywhere else. That always seemed like a reasonable compromise to me.

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[psalms23dad]

Interesting conversation.

I take a "combatives" class taught buy a guy who left karate because of the issues that's been stated. A week ago Saturday my sensei set up a time for me to spar with one of his former karate students. This gentleman is a 2nd degree black belt who wins basicly every tournament he competes in. His kicking ability, timing, and ability to cover distance is far better than mine. However, once I got in past his kicks, his only defense was to cover and try to punch from a fully chambered position, which resulted in me just over running him with a flurry of strikes, strikes that would not be allowed in a points match, which he left openings for. I assumed he was letting me hit him. My sensei and I have spoken a lot about it since then. He, my sensei assured me this how that school fights, because that's how he used to fight..... no I would beat this guy in a points match and some of the kicks I received didn't have the power behind them they could have. I'm not saying for a second I, as a blue belt, could beat this guy in a full out fight but, it showed me what's being discussed here, and that's the holes that competition creates.

[Gabriel Suarez]

I always got in trouble when I'd spar with Kyokushin guys...

Me too...you can take the boy out of the street....

[Mark Hatfield]

I have read that there is a letter from the 1880s written by Okinawas top karateka (the name escapes me at the moment) complaining that it was becoming a sport rather than combat. Then watered down more with every generation.

A few years ago the elderly former top instructor for Shotokan stated that Shotokan was now suited for fighting only if the attacker was also using Shotokan, however real fighting techniques were still in the kata but nobody cared to learn them.

[Gabriel Suarez]

.....but nobody cared to learn them.

Just like today with gunfighting.

[Brent Yamamoto]

Interesting conversation...

Competition karate people forget there are things like elbows, headbutts, hammer fists, palm slaps...

All that stuff you see in kata works GREAT at bad breath distance. Most of it works for shit at tournament sparring distance, which is why you don't see it.


Karate people SHOULD be able to punch a ton, but most don't because it's taught poorly. Many of them punch ok at full extension but get inside that range and it's weak. Which is ridiculous, because that is usually the first thing that is taught! (Who hasn't seen the kid in a low horse stance, punching from a full chamber position at his belt?) That punch is designed to hit hard at any point along it's path from start to finish.

And Karate also teaches different ways to punch, but I've never seen anyone do it in competition.

[Brent Yamamoto]

real fighting techniques were still in the kata but nobody cared to learn them.

There's also the problem that so few of the instructors knew them to begin with.

I noticed the movement in the mid 90's to resurrect kata applications. From my perspective, that was driven by people outside of Japan. I learned some great things from all of my Japanese instructors, but application wasn't even on the radar. I got vague answers when I asked about it.

It's still a big problem in the Karate world, but I see many working to bring Karate back to its roots. Iain Abernethy is a great example.

[CaneCorso]

...and the search for The One True Art. .....

Of which there is none, of course. Just many different tools for the tool box.

[kabar]

Here's a video showing some practical application of kata and includes examples of MMA and tournament fighters using the techniques.



Edit: the video embed doesn't work for me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDs7RPboEO8

[Gabriel Suarez]

And then is the matter that Karate (and all martial studies) are born in violence and are applied in violence. That means that those who teach it should be well versed in violence, or as our tribal stalwart Nichols would say, "Think in violence". That doesn't happen as much as some would think. All the old masters fought people - for reals - all the time. Some were thugs as a matter of fact. The saintly Mr. Miyagi of the media is a far cry from the real old time karateka. It was far more Cobra-Kai than even modern instructors would admit. No spiritual navel-gazers need apply. I think the American Hippy Culture has also infiltrated many martial systems 9more Aikido than karate but still)...whether that has happened to a given school or not is determined by whther they shun violence and take a philosophical approach to what they do. (I have seen hippy Aiki and hippy Krav and hippy BJJ.)

Very few instructors that teach openly have actually used karate in anger and thus theory never meets reality (and by that I mean in the real world for keeps to intentionally injure or kill another man).

Brent...you know Ian. If we can facilitate his visit it would be a fantastic opportunity for all tribal members with a vetted karate background.