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  1. #31
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    Apr 2018
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    Will you clarify something for me? You listed loading order as "buck,buck,buck,slug,buck". As we know, first in equals last out, with the gun you used. Did you account for an understanding of this, or did you mean it in the lay term listing the order in which they would actually be chambered in? Further, what was the rationale for the sequence? Thankyou!

  2. #32
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    Bringing it back around.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #33
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    Mar 2014
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    I`ve read through this thread a good dozen times, and each time I do I learn something new. There is definitely a distinct heart and soul in a shotgun.
    "they have no basis of comparison and have trouble understanding how an education in violence is presented and have to struggle through the internalization of the topic."
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  4. #34
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    Oct 2003
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    3,386
    A student and friend and member here PBSODetective (RIP) once related the story in class of a shooting his dept had with a shotgun slug that hit dude in the thigh , breaking his femur and driving a piece of it up into his torso and killing him...... . That's not something an M4 is likely to do.....
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor
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  5. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
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    2,717
    Shotguns hit hard, but don't assume they will always act like Thor's hammer. My cousin's skinny 16yo son survived a point blank range shot with a 12 gauge slug. A "friend" was screwing around not knowing it was loaded and shot him in their living room. The slug made a mess out of his upper arm before traversing latterally through his torso, but stopped in his lung before hitting any major vessels or the heart. It might have been a different story if it was loaded with buck, but who knows.
    Last edited by kabar; 04-11-2019 at 05:55 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kabar View Post
    Shotguns hit hard, but don't assume they will always act like Thor's hammer. My cousin's skinny 16yo son survived a point blank range shot with a 12 gauge slug. A "friend" was screwing around not knowing it was loaded and shot him in their living room. The slug made a mess out of his upper arm before traversing latterally through his torso, but stopped in his lung before hitting any major vessels or the heart. It might have been a different story if it was loaded with buck, but who knows.
    "Survived" doesn't mean anything to me. People have survived all manner of things from shots to the face with rifles to falls out of airplanes without parachutes. WAS HE STILL ON HIS FEET AND IN A MOOD TO DO ANYTHING PHYSICAL AFTER THE FACT? That is the question and the answer is that even a peripheral injury with a 12 ga and buckshot is far more damaging than the same peripheral injury with any other firearms.

    Years ago we commented that most people that are shot with handguns survive. A corollary to that...most people that get shot with shotguns do not.

    "
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Phoenix, Arizona
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    9,487
    Quote Originally Posted by kabar View Post
    Shotguns hit hard, but don't assume they will always act like Thor's hammer. My cousin's skinny 16yo son survived a point blank range shot with a 12 gauge slug. A "friend" was screwing around not knowing it was loaded and shot him in their living room. The slug made a mess out of his upper arm before traversing latterally through his torso, but stopped in his lung before hitting any major vessels or the heart. It might have been a different story if it was loaded with buck, but who knows.
    2 shots of bird shot, at 8', from an 11" sawed off double barrel, knocked me down, nearly killed me, and took me out of the fight for a period of time. Had the shell extractor not been broken I wouldn't have had time to react and take him down before he reloaded. Additionally had he used more appropriate ammo for the job I wouldn't have lived to get off the floor. As Gabe states above, from personal experience, and evidenced by my 2.5 month stay in the hospital, "the answer is that even a peripheral injury with a 12 ga and buckshot is far more damaging than the same peripheral injury with any other firearms."

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  8. #38
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    May 2000
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    For me...now that the non-combatant kids and elderly are out of the house and we are populated by combatant adults, the weapon I have at home for home defense is a Pointman 12 Ga. As well, the weapon that rides in the Tahoe, should I need something more than my EDC Suarez Glock, is a similarly attired 12 ga with 14" barrel. At the conclusion of discussion, there will likely be only one story told.

    The only place I carry a rifle these days is in the back country. JMNSHO.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by UNO View Post
    Will you clarify something for me? You listed loading order as "buck,buck,buck,slug,buck". As we know, first in equals last out, with the gun you used. Did you account for an understanding of this, or did you mean it in the lay term listing the order in which they would actually be chambered in? Further, what was the rationale for the sequence? Thankyou!
    I knew the Lieutenant and worked with him after that assignment and time in his career. They loaded “buck, buck, slug, buck” as it was easy to cycle to a “rifle-accurate” projectile if the need arose rather quickly. This did happen and an example might be if on initial contact buckshot was ineffective or a shot was needed beyond buckshot’s effective range.

    With that loading sequence all one need to do to go from a massively destructive loading for close range to an equally destructive loading at range is cycle once. One needs to also remember that at close range buckshot has advantages the slug does not; only the shotgun offers so many options.

    One final point, that loading sequence was at that time agency policy. It was with my agency as well. Shotguns are no longer used, having been replaced with 5.56mm carbines, so those transition skills have gone the way of lost history.
    Last edited by StudentofViolence; 04-12-2019 at 05:29 PM.

  10. #40
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    So...how about load with the ammo the shotgun is most useful in CQB with and that had the greatest chance of hitting and destroying things with...which like it or not is buckshot. And should you require something different for barrier penetration or reach, switch to a slug...a specialized technique rarely required, but something that makes far more sense than trying to guess which way the fight will go.

    All of my 870s are loaded with Buckshot. I do keep a handful of Brenekes around JIC...but they live in loops or pouches and not in the tube.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

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