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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    281
    Agreed... and even within the street or battlefield, there are different flavors of combat. It is definitely impossible to train for every possible event. I think the goal is to make yourself as efficient at solving tactical problems real time as possible so that you can quickly adapt as the situation develops and, also, to learn as many of your glitches as possible so that you can push through them.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    5,442
    Mine

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathon_Spaf View Post
    I guess another branch to my question is: if part of the training is not useful, are you harming yourself by practicing it? As almost always, it depends. Some things that aren't combat useful still have value - it may be thin value but useful nonetheless. Example - I've done Aikido for a long time. Many of the techniques are of no use in fighting IMO, too complicated, often out of context, unrealistic, etc. Yet the act of practicing them over time has definitely been valuable to me. It took me awhile to figure that out. I think you can derive value from almost anything as long as you look at it the right way. The real question is how much value do you get for the time and effort that you invest? I don't care what stuff you practice, some of it is gonna be less useful for YOU, that's just the nature of the beast. Only you can judge for you.

    For example, there are several techniques that I view as dumb or unlikely scenarios. Using your elbows to try to break the grasp of a bear hug from behind when 1) I don't think you can rely on the pain caused for repeatable results and, 2) I think that by the time you realize what is happening (meaning you really messed up on situational awareness), you are going to be flying through the air because the bear hug was probably just the initiation of a throw. Yeah I don't think that works so well...HOWEVER, now you've experienced it at least in a training context. You can come up with other stuff on your own or learn something better elsewhere. Try just relaxing, and let them tire themselves out. Keep your feet active to catch yourself on the floor or better yet the walls.

    Is it bad to practice such a technique to advance to the next belt? Not a big deal for any given technique. Get it out of the way, get what you can out of it and focus on better stuff

    Or are you conditioning bad habits into yourself by training in "bad" techniques? I don't think so, as long as you recognize it and take steps to condition yourself for a better response.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,188
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathon_Spaf View Post
    ...And the light contact aspect sometimes bugs me because one of my personal "glitches" is taking a punch to the face (as I mentioned in a previous post)... so I don't get a lot....!

    I think you you can make the contact as light or heavy as you want by agreement with your training partner...

    Put in a mouthpiece, chin down, and announce you’re going a bit harder today... someone will play.
    ~~~

    Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
    1 Corinthians 16:13

    "It is good to be strong, but better to know how to use it."
    - Jimmy H. Woo (Chin Siu Dek)

    "Conquer we must; as Conquer we shall.”
    - Sir Winston

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Third Coast
    Posts
    4,083
    I teach combatives for the state required "physical skills" portion of the state peace officer and corrections licensing requirement (gotta pass the course before you can be licensed). In essence the state repackaged PPCT ( I originally certed in PPCT back in 89). A few techniques in the PPCT system work REALLY well, but a bunch do not.

    This leads us to required teaching not teaching the required skills. I have to sign off (with the associated understanding of answering for/ being sued because) on their successful demonstration of a particular skillset. So how do we fix the problem?

    We go through the "required" portion and they successfully demonstrate these items (proper attention given to the PPCT techniques that DO work) , THEN we go to value added stuff. WE throw in some SPEAR, McCanns combatives, and elbow work. Then we take them into a live facility and have them look at for "career killers" (things that can injure you if you arent aware of them, like the exposed hinges on a door at shin level, drop a knee on that and its career gone) and free weapons (things in the environment that can aid you) like the corner of the concrete wall, the floor (thats always there), or the steel booking bench, or the previously discussed door hinge.

    After our walk through, the Cadre suits up (we were using FIST suits, but have changed to the High Speed Gear suits and love them) and you get to deal with one to three folks of variable cooperativeness. Bonus points for launching cadre into walls, doors, using benches to break balance and drive them off their feet etc. Main thing is the fight doesnt stop till the Cadre does, and we dont stop for a good while, depending on the situation a second member of Cadre jumps in too (bonus points for smacking badguy 1 into badguy 2)

    Ending a class bruised, maybe with a few bloody knuckles and abrasions BUT a realistic way of looking at an environment, how to look at it and "pre-plan" your "free" tools, and "stick time" in that environment. The Cadre is sore after one of these classes, bruised, pulled muscles, and the like BUT we know we have done our best to prepare the student beyond the "required" with tools that are proven to work.

    Im still discussing with the commission revamping the physical skills portion. Until they do , we will continue to add value to the "required" training.
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    229
    Halfway thru the book called Working with Warriors. For those interested in traditional combat Karate and how it is applied to street conditions, then this book will be of interest. It details the careers of Dennis Martin and two other British Karate practitioners who started out as bouncers/doormen in British clubs. Goes into pretty good detail of real Japanese karate combat and hardcore British Karate training. They applied their combat Karate training to the street and prevailed. Martin gradually steered towards the Fairbairn Sykes CQB methodology. Not sure if Fairbairn had Karate training, but his protege Pat O'Neil did. Pat O'Neil was stationed in Japan during the 1920s or 1930s and learned Karate there. Pat O'Neil was a veteran of the Shanghai Police with Fairbairn and trained and I believe fought with the Canadian/American Special Forces group in WW2. He was then put in charge of helping train Japanese police in the post-WW II period. He recruited old school Japanese Karate instructors to help with the curriculum (instructors he probably met during his earlier time in Japan). Interesting stuff.

    https://www.amazon.com/Working-Warri.../dp/1903854792

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Blade Doc View Post
    Not sure if Fairbairn had Karate training,
    He supposedly studied "Chinese Boxing". Several sources have it that he studied Ba Gwa.

    He also studied Judo and/or Jujutsu.

    Interesting about O'Neil studying Karate...

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    10,123
    Quote Originally Posted by coastalcop View Post

    (we were using FIST suits, but have changed to the High Speed Gear suits and love them)
    you ever miss getting FISTed?
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    252
    🤣

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Third Coast
    Posts
    4,083
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    you ever miss getting FISTed?


    Depends on whether Im the FISTer or FISTee....I try to keep an open mind ;)
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

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