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  1. #1
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    Default SHOTGUN STANDARDS

    Objective: Establish criteria where a shotgun platform, and its operator can be examined from the perspective of a real world application. Thus the weapon can be examined for application and utility. The shotgunner's weapon manipulations can be examined for his ability to run that platform in environments replicating a fight.

    Starting Position: Weapon in Carry Position (meaning anything other than pointed in on target), with safety on.

    Target: For uniformity, a IDPA carboard - Hits on torso required in the "-1" some although we do not deduct for hits here...only outside. For head shots, shots must be in the "face".

    BUCKSHOT - (20 rounds of anti-personnel buck necessary)

    7 yards - 1 shot in 1.0 seconds to the face - Repeat 5 times
    10 yards - 1 shot in 1.25 seconds to chest - Repeat 5 times
    15 yards - 1 shot in 1.50 seconds to chest - Repeat 5 times
    25 yards - 1 shot in 2.00 seconds to chest - Repeat 5 times

    SLUGS - (10 rounds of anti-personnel slugs)

    10 yards - 1 shot in 1.50 seconds to the face - Repeat 5 times
    50 yards - 1 shot in 2.00 seconds to the chest - Repeat 5 times

    REACTIVE WORK - (10 rounds buckshot)

    Single Target at 5 yards - Move off the X right 5 times - single round each time in 1.5 seconds
    Single Target at 5 yards - Move off the X left 5 times - single round each time in 1.5 seconds (completing with shoulder transfer)

    MULTIPLE TARGETS - (12 rounds buckshot, 1 slug)

    Five targets At 7 yards - Stationary shooting - One shot each (center hits only for speed) 3.0 seconds
    Five targets At 7 yards - Stationary shooting with Proactive reloading - One shot each (center hits only for speed) - firing one, reloading, and firing again to complete the five. 7.0 seconds
    Two targets At 7 yards - One target at 50 yards - Stationary shooting with Ammo Change - One shot each of two 7 yard targets with buckshot, change ammo to slugs and center hit steel at 50 yards - 7.0 seconds
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
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    Nearly Free State of Arizona
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    Is this something that we are going to investigate at the Shotgun course? I would love to see the differences between 3 types of stakeout (RMR, Alaskan, Bead), the Pointman, the Raider, and then maybe a Benelli M1 or Beretta 1301. Maybe someone coming has a toy AK shotgun as well.

    The course of fire seems realistic and makes a ton of sense.
    “How can I shoot people? Shooting people is easy. It is the simple application of the fundamentals of marksmanship. The hard part is ensuring that I have the physical strength to prevail, the moral strength to know when it is right to kill, and the mental strength to articulate the aftermath such that I maintain my freedom while they experience what comes next in the afterlife.”

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisNobody View Post
    Is this something that we are going to investigate at the Shotgun course? I would love to see the differences between 3 types of stakeout (RMR, Alaskan, Bead), the Pointman, the Raider, and then maybe a Benelli M1 or Beretta 1301. Maybe someone coming has a toy AK shotgun as well.

    The course of fire seems realistic and makes a ton of sense.
    That is the idea. Also to put things like the IWI-12 and Kel-Tecs and such in the right perspective.

    No mag dumps...no speed loads...just real world shotgun gunfighting applications.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    5,494
    Suggestion/comment: since the common method of carry for truck guns is full tube, empty chamber, some work (not all) should be done from that condition of carry.

    Comment 2: I thought we earlier studied the matter and found that "select slug" work just didn't happen in the real world.
    __________

    "To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
    Suggestion/comment: since the common method of carry for truck guns is full tube, empty chamber, some work (not all) should be done from that condition of carry.

    Comment 2: I thought we earlier studied the matter and found that "select slug" work just didn't happen in the real world.

    On comment number 1 - good idea.

    On comment number 2 - didn't happen MUCH, just like a pistol malfunction, but being a part of the shotgun concept, we include it.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    SE WV
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    853
    My 870 HD stays "cruiser ready":full mag, chamber empty, hammer down, & safety off; rack & shoot!
    I always have my primary weapon; it's right between my ears.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob F. View Post
    My 870 HD stays "cruiser ready":full mag, chamber empty, hammer down, & safety off; rack & shoot!

    Well...that is one way. I think we will begin the festivities in at least one of the drills that way..."cruiser ready", but what if its not your cruiser? There is a place for hammer back safety on as well. Maybe one of each.

    Again...the idea is not some dad-bod-wick drill, but rather as a set of exercises to determine an understanding of the weapon as well as the suitability of the weapon. I bet a Tavor doesn't do as well as a Mossberg at these drills. Its also not intended to be "gamed". If you find yourself gaming the exercise you have lost sight of the entire point.

    As well...it is not some "combat master firearm jerk off session". You want to be a combat master lets count bodies. Mine are in the double digits and I am hardly a master of anything except cooking Paella. One of our staffers has a count in the triple digits and he would rather eat monkey chocolate than claim the title. Real warriors are humble men that acknowledge the only Master is seated at the right hand of the Father..
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
    Suggestion/comment: since the common method of carry for truck guns is full tube, empty chamber, some work (not all) should be done from that condition of carry.
    Depending on range conditions, an interesting start would be to begin in carry mode (in vehicle, bag, etc.) and move with a purpose to the firing position.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    Somewhere in the Appalachians.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob F. View Post
    My 870 HD stays "cruiser ready":full mag, chamber empty, hammer down, & safety off; rack & shoot!
    Unless there's some sort of department regulation or rule otherwise, I never understood why people don't carry with one in the pipe.

    If I'm carrying a shotgun or rifle, it's ready to use with the flick of a safety.
    Isaiah 54:17

    Deus dea traballo, dixo o enterrador.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by H60DoorGunner View Post
    Unless there's some sort of department regulation or rule otherwise, I never understood why people don't carry with one in the pipe.

    If I'm carrying a shotgun or rifle, it's ready to use with the flick of a safety.


    In the car, cruiser ready keeps the roof intact. Ive seen a couple of holes in roofs where the safety either wasnt engaged or was bounced off by stuff in the squad, then something else bounces around in the mobile office and hits the trigger.... or they hit the trigger trying to get it out of the rack, Once its in your hands it should be racked and safed till your at the "hunting" grounds, then safety off in most cases. If I have time to grab it from the rack, I have time to rack it.
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

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