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  1. #1
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    Default BEAD, GHOST RING, RMR OR RIFLE SIGHTS???

    alsakan-sights-suarez.jpg
    The Stakeout (or as the common people call it, a Tac-14 or Shockwave) is a different animal than a regular shotgun. Its like the difference between an AK and an AR. They are used in a different manner and from each other.

    First a discussion on the traditional use of a Shotgun with a bead. The stock and mount are crucial. Sports Shotgunners take great pains to fit their stocks because the stock places the face and the eye in the same place every time...hopefully anyway. The eye is in essence the rear sight...and the bead is the front sight. This works well enough unless you are shooting an extremely tight pattern...or slug rounds.

    With the Stakeouts, the rear sight...ie., the stock, is missing. And what happens is that Tac-14 (yes...I am going to use the words...Stockless Shotguns) users will always tend to shoot high. The reasons are two fold. One is the desire to keep the pistol grip lower than the face. Two is the way the stockless shotgun recoils (see the videos), back and down. Third is the tendency to look over the bead. The stock not keeping the eye in place, the stockless shooter will tend to over shoot the target.

    If one is aware of this, the bead can work if the shooter forces himself to keep the ass end of the shotgun up where his eye is.

    A best practice for us has been the use of the Red Dot (we prefer the Trijicon RMR). Properly zeroed, an RMR equipped Stakeout keeps up with any stocked shotgun. In class we have taken head shots out to 15 yards with tight patterning buckshot and consistently hit with slugs at 100 yards.

    But not everyone wants an RMR on their SSGN (Stockless Shotgun). When we worked up the Alaskan Package for a customer he wanted rifle sights. Rifle sights are simpler than an RMR...that is true, and slightly less expensive.

    The rifle sights give you the important rear visual index point just like a pistol and in experiments and testing, we were able to duplicate what we do with the RMR Stakeouts...just slightly slower. In short, you have the same sight picture as your pistol, and that makes great sense.

    Why not the popular Ghost Rings everyone has on their shotguns? With a stocked weapon, the rear ghost ring works well since the face and eye are always in place to see through the rear ring. Without a stock, the ghost rings are far slower than the traditional rifle sights and RMR.

    This SSGN concept as seen in the Stakeouts, The Tac-14 genre, is far more than a close range hip shooter. It is an extremely compact and useful tool capable of a broad range of duties and assignments as long as the sighting system allows for such deployment.

    ALASKAN-1.jpg
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
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    Under the Black Flag
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    283
    Truth here boss. With my bead I find slug work ok, but not precise enough. With rifle sights on the barrel it still meets my "drop it down the mountain, pick up, dust off and roll on" requirement. RMR would work, but I have lots of training time behind the open sights of my work 870. I also find it the quick way to fix the high shot and the windage issues.

    Fast buckshot bodydropping will not be hindered, yet I can still pull the face shot at range...

    Thank you for always pushing the envelope and never accepting "its always been done this way" and/or "good enough."

    I see my SSGN as a compact tool that can drop any and all things in N.America provided the range is correct. Not made for all fights, but unbeatable in the ones it was made for...

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    24
    Have you seen the low profile rifle sights from Remington? They are express sights, which stink on handguns, but work really well on a shotgun.

  4. #4
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    Nov 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev8287 View Post
    Have you seen the low profile rifle sights from Remington? They are express sights, which stink on handguns, but work really well on a shotgun.
    I have 10 shotguns in inventory with express sights. I don't like them on shotguns either. I have no use for them.
    Jon Payne
    Ambassador, Suarez Group of Companies
    Suarez International Law Enforcement Instructor

    Owner of Ray's Pawnshop in Bridge City TX

    The Two Most Dangerous Places in Today's World:
    1.) A Gun Free Zone
    2.) Your Comfort Zone




  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev8287 View Post
    Have you seen the low profile rifle sights from Remington? They are express sights, which stink on handguns, but work really well on a shotgun.


    And explain to me what they do better over standard traditional rifle sights? And what are you giving up if opting for them? The Big Dot XS SIghts are as useless on a shotgun as they are on the pistol.

    XS-Big-Dot.jpg

    This is what they look like. Above. How do you zero for height? How do you align on target with any precision? If you want to use sights and require them for your needs, YOU MUST BE ABLE TO ALIGN THEM FINITELY and YOU MUST BE ABLE TO INDEX ON TARGET. Neither of those operations is easily done with the XS system. You will do just as well (or not depending on your intentions) as with a simple bead and no rear sight.

    These are the rifle sights I am referring to seen below. Some call them "SLUG SIGHTS"

    5604552.jpg ameriglo_tritium_sights.jpg

    They use the same sight picture as your pistol. They are square and easier for the eye to align and index. And unlike others, it can actually be zeroed to hit where you wish to hit with a tight pattern or a slug.
    Another look at them on a barrel.

    870-Night-Sights.jpg

    But 2018 is the year where I no longer care whether the horse drinks or the horse dies of thirst. If you want them on your shotgun, we will put them on as we are nothing if not pirate capitalists...but if you ask my opinion and think it is valuable...these are worthless on any firearm that may require any degree (any degree) of precise shot placement.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    NW Washington
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    3,033
    With a bead on these short (non-ribbed) barrels, everybody seems to miss the fact that the bead is lower than the top of the receiver; sighting down the barrel points the gun high. If you can see the bead over the receiver, you're aiming high. That's not because the stock is missing, it's because it's a crappy sight system that is only used because it's the absolute cheapest thing available.

    A bead on a vent rib is completely different; you can sight that with or without a stock.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yondering View Post
    A bead on a vent rib is completely different; you can sight that with or without a stock.
    IF the ammunition lends itself to that use. A very tight buckshot pattern or slug use will not do as well with a bead only. And as I said earlier.....

    "With the Stakeouts, the rear sight...ie., the stock, is missing. And what happens is that Tac-14 (yes...I am going to use the words...Stockless Shotguns) users will always tend to shoot high. The reasons are two fold. One is the desire to keep the pistol grip lower than the face. Two is the way the stockless shotgun recoils (see the videos), back and down. Third is the tendency to look over the bead. The stock not keeping the eye in place, the stockless shooter will tend to over shoot the target."

    The rifle sights give you the important rear visual index point just like a pistol and in experiments and testing, we were able to duplicate what we do with the RMR Stakeouts...just slightly slower. In short, you have the same sight picture as your pistol, and that makes great sense.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    NW Washington
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    3,033
    Yes fair enough Gabe. I was speaking more specifically just about the "shooting high" issue that is pretty universally common on the short (14" or 18.5") bead-only barrels for both Remington and Mossberg shotguns.

    One can set up a bead system (with a mid-bead) that is pretty accurate with slugs, but like you said, that works best with a stock.

  9. #9
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    Oh no...you are exactly right. That is the problem with misunderstanding the weapon (its an area weapon with buckshot so who cares), or trying to turn it into a rifle (need Ghost Ring sights and a visit to Vang). A shotgun...even a 14' one is well capable of head shots (decap shots?) at ten to fifteen, with the use of quality buck and appropriate sights.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    24
    In regards to the low profile rifle sights.
    First I was offering an option/answer to the question which the thread was started on. Jon, I am aware that they are not the best thing on the market but they are effective. Also what style of sighting system do you issue the most for shotguns and do you issue buck and slug? I, like many here have used a variety of different "iron" sighting systems for shotgun (Bead, Ghost Ring, Pistol, and Rifle), what I have come to believe is that the shotgun as Gabe has said is primarily a multi projectile/area weapon weapon. Thus I now look for sighting systems that allow me to maximize that but are flexible for other purposes. I am aware and have trained to use shotguns as single projectile weapon, but given my choice I prefer a rifle for that job, once again like many here.

    Now, to try and answer a couple questions that have been asked. I have found this sighting system to be more durable than the stock rifle sights that Remington offers. The sights can be zeroed, the rear sight has holes that require a small allen wrench to loosen so they can be drifted for windage. The first barrel I got with these sights required a a far left adjustment, but now I can hit a steel chest plate at 100 yards with slugs. Subsequent barrels with this sighting system have not required any adjustments. For elevation they used to offer different height sights(I believe they still do), I as of yet have not had that requirement using a variety of different slugs out to distance 50 and 100. No compared to the traditional rifle sights, this is not simple or easy but ask how is the shotgun going to be used and what level of accuracy are we trying to achieve?

    Gabe, you are also correct about the fact at close range this sighting system allows its use as just a traditional bead sight. The V in the rear can be used if greater accuracy is required. On the subject of accuracy these are not as accurate as the stock rifle sights nor can they achieve that level of accuracy, but on a fighting gun if I need that I will go with a RMR or Aimpoint Micro.

    All in all I think some of the best iron sights ever put on a shotgun were the rifle sights on the old Benelli M1 and M3 shotguns. Essentially pistol sights. By the way if anyone knows where a M1 barrel with these sights can be found for a good price, please let me know.

    I believe if it is possible a set of suppressor height pistol sights would be the best answer, to the question posed at the beginning of this thread. The sighting system for the TAC-14 would probably work well on a stocked shotgun.
    The value of this sighting system on handguns was a gimmick, but on a shotgun it offers more flexibility than a plain bead sight.
    The last thing I just wanted to offer an option, not trying to say this is the best.

    Stay Safe be Dangerous!!!!
    Wait this is Warrior Talk you are already Dangerous.
    Last edited by Kev8287; 01-13-2018 at 03:12 PM.

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