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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    4,850
    Astigmatism does not affect the dual illumination models. If you see the dot bloom out, you should definitely try them.

    I like both the dual illum dot and the triangle, but like every thing there's a trade off.

    Both of them are very crisp for my eyes, more so than the LED red dot models.

    The amber dot is very bright in full daylight. It can be almost too bright on a bright summer day. It is still quite visible in low light, and does not wash out as bad. Biggest downside is that it only comes in 13 moa (WAY too big) and 9 moa (almost too big). At longer range it can completely cover the target. If it came in a smaller dot honestly it might be the only one I would use. As it is, I only use one on my Stakeout (it's PERFECT).

    The triangle allows for more precision using the triangle tip. Brightness level is perfect in daylight, but easily washes out in low light. Most low light circumstances you might as well not have a dot. It does work very well with NV however.

    As for the dot moving around...if there's a medical issue I don't know what to tell you. Vision and astigmatism can be fixed, if there's something else going on I guess it's just not for you. I will say that when I first started with dots, they moved around on me too. Practice solved that issue.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    1,284

    Default Best Alternative to RMR?

    Recommendations from other threads and Gabe’s blog:

    • Centering the dot in the frame/window is NOT required.
    • Don’t try to use irons and dot at the same time.
    • Realize that your RDS pistol has 3 aiming systems.
    • Bottom line:
    TAKE Gabe’s OFFER!! You’ll be deadlier and have more “tools” when you’re done.

    Sent from my Black Dot iPhone...
    Last edited by Ted Demosthenes; 12-03-2017 at 12:55 PM.
    Ted Demosthenes
    Suarez International Staff Instructor

    From Murphy: "If it looks stupid and it works, it ain't stupid"


  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    NW Washington
    Posts
    2,922
    That's a pretty cool offer from Gabe. Take him up on it, but be prepared to pay the tuition unless you really have a medical condition.

    If you really think the RMR is the problem compared to an Aimpoint or whatever - mount the RMR on a rifle and find out for sure. I think you'll find that it's just as steady as any other type of dot.

    The one exception would be the slim chance there's something broken in your RMR and the dot is actually moving around, but you should be able to see that immediately by referencing to the iron sights.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    The last bastion of conservative CA
    Posts
    1,074
    I would think the OP should take up the generous training offer challenge and then do a detailed write up on the results.

    Debugging like this is a waste of time and just creates FUD.
    ~~~

    Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
    1 Corinthians 16:13

    "It is good to be strong, but better to know how to use it."
    - Jimmy H. Woo (Chin Siu Dek)

    "I spent my whole life trying not to be careless. Women and children can be careless. But not men." - Vito Corleone

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    SE Va
    Posts
    657
    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    Astigmatism does not affect the dual illumination models. If you see the dot bloom out, you should definitely try them.

    I like both the dual illum dot and the triangle, but like every thing there's a trade off.

    Both of them are very crisp for my eyes, more so than the LED red dot models.

    The amber dot is very bright in full daylight. It can be almost too bright on a bright summer day. It is still quite visible in low light, and does not wash out as bad. Biggest downside is that it only comes in 13 moa (WAY too big) and 9 moa (almost too big). At longer range it can completely cover the target. If it came in a smaller dot honestly it might be the only one I would use. As it is, I only use one on my Stakeout (it's PERFECT).

    The triangle allows for more precision using the triangle tip. Brightness level is perfect in daylight, but easily washes out in low light. Most low light circumstances you might as well not have a dot. It does work very well with NV however.

    As for the dot moving around...if there's a medical issue I don't know what to tell you. Vision and astigmatism can be fixed, if there's something else going on I guess it's just not for you. I will say that when I first started with dots, they moved around on me too. Practice solved that issue.
    My understanding was the dual illuminated units wash out, but you are saying the triangle ones do not?
    Excepting how large the reticle is.

    For me, lighted reticles tend to be pretty much OK, but a lighted dot at the center is all starred out like a red dot.
    The mro is the best, but still pretty bad, aimpoints bad, eo tech is the worst. Cheaper sights worse still. Battery rmr just like aimpoint.
    I have an old tripower, a meprolight m21, and the mini acog, all perfectly sharp.

    Got to play with an rmr'ed glock, the auto brightness one. Yes, it's fast, and I had no problems finding the blurry, oddly canted oblong dot.

    Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
    Gunsmith for Unique Armament Creations
    Class II/ 07 SOT Manufacturer
    Glock Advanced Armorer

    Liberty is not a cruise ship full of pampered passengers.
    Liberty is a Man-Of-War, and we are all crew.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
    Posts
    44,854
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunfixr View Post
    My understanding was the dual illuminated units wash out, but you are saying the triangle ones do not?
    Excepting how large the reticle is.

    For me, lighted reticles tend to be pretty much OK, but a lighted dot at the center is all starred out like a red dot.
    The mro is the best, but still pretty bad, aimpoints bad, eo tech is the worst. Cheaper sights worse still. Battery rmr just like aimpoint.
    I have an old tripower, a meprolight m21, and the mini acog, all perfectly sharp.

    Got to play with an rmr'ed glock, the auto brightness one. Yes, it's fast, and I had no problems finding the blurry, oddly canted oblong dot.

    Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
    RECONSIDERING THE DUAL ILLUMINATED RMR

    Monday, May 08, 2017


    RECONSIDERING THE DUAL ILLUMINATED RMR

    I have been working with these since January and carrying one daily on my Glock 17 to get a first hand idea of the advantages and liabilities of the units. Specifically I am referring to the Trijicon Dual Illuminated RMRs: The RM03, 04, 05, and 08. These have 13 MOA, 7 MOA, 9 MOA and 12.9 Triangle respectively. I am referring as well to the Amber Dot units and not to the Green Dot units. The green do units require a pinkish hue to the glass and we will discuss those later.


    The Dual Illuminated units have a plastic strip along the top of the RMR that acts as a fiber optic collecting available light to power the dot. It is also powered by a tritium element that ostensibly will last ten years or more. These do not require any batteries and that is both where the advantage and liability lies.


    It is an advantage because all one need do is install it on their slide and run it unconcerned about batteries for years. In fact, the tritium will last for 12 years or more. This is favored by men who travel in the outskirts of civilization where there may well be no batteries at all to be had. The concern often voiced is that the fiber optic and tritium are dependent on the existing light conditions to function at their utmost.


    Think of this in terms of tritium sights. Unless you go into a sufficiently darkened environment, you will not see them glow. This is the same situation with the tritium in the RMR. It must be dark enough for that tritium-powered dot to stand out. The plan is that if it is not dark enough to make the tritium stand out, you will have the fiber optic to power the dot. Most of the time the concept works perfectly. The concern is that when the available ambient light is insufficient to power the fiber optic, but the darkness is insufficient to allow the tritium to stand out, you will have a dot fade out.

    Examples below:


    1). Early pre-sunrise morning, or just at sunset. This is an area where identifying targets is also difficult and you would be unlikely to engage anyone at distance simply because you would not likely see them in the first place. Use of the handgun would be the same as if you were equipped with iron sights only.


    2). Engaging a threat in an illuminated environment while you are concealed in a dark environment. The situation is best illustrated with you inside the house wanting to engage a bad guy approaching from the outside. Use of the handgun would be the same as if you were equipped with iron sights only.


    3). When using a weapon mounted light. As soon as the light comes on, there is insufficient darkness to power the fiber optic (as it is directed toward the threat and not in an ambient situation), and yet insufficient darkness at that point to see the tritium. This is what some term as "washout". Again, use of the handgun would be the same as if you were equipped with iron sights only.


    At all other times excluding these, the Amber Dot RMRs serve as well as their red LED counterparts.

    So the first question is whether these special situations are so notable that we absolutely are better served by going with the battery powered units instead. Secondly - if we opted for the dual illuminated unit becomes how to minimize your liability when using the system in the three situations shown.


    To answer the first question, I don't think the situations listed are a definitive reason to discount the dual illuminated units. The reason is that we have answered the second question with an interesting workaround. It is a tactical solution rather than a technical one.

    First is the use of standard tritium sights in conjunction with this category of RMR. I like my design of course as I think it is simpler than the others on the market (a front dot and a rear dot rather than three dots), but the same effect can be obtained using any of them.


    The shooter trains his eye to visually shift focus from where he expects the dot to be - to the iron sights any time he has difficulty getting on the dot. This is the "visual immediate action drill" used for a failed battery and it is just as valid for a washed out amber dot in these unusual events. In minimal light but insufficient darkness we found that the tritium sights not only help keep the pistol aligned and usable under those varying light conditions, but also guides the eye back to the dot even if it is fainter than usual due to circumstance.


    Moreover, the shooter must remember that he has "dual sighting systems" on his pistol. If one is unusable he transitions immediately to the other one. With this in mind, the shooter can optimize the advantages and minimize the drawbacks of the Dual Illuminated RMR. And with the added reliability and simplicity of the dual illuminated units, there are few reasons to not select it.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #37
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
    Posts
    44,854
    OPTIMIZING THE DUAL ILLUMINATED RMR

    Tuesday, January 12, 2016



    We have been working with these for a few weeks now. I have been carrying one daily on my Glock 17 to get a first hand idea of the advantages and liabilities of the units. Specifically I am referring to the Trijicon Dual Illuminated RMRs: The RM03, 04, 05, and 08. These have 13 MOA, 7 MOA, 9 MOA and 12.9 Triangle respectively. I am referring as well to the Amber Dot units and not to the Green Dot units. The green do units require a pinkish hue to the glass and we will discuss those later.
    The Dual Illuminated units have a plastic strip along the top of the RMR that acts as a fiber optic collecting available light to power the dot. It is also powered by a tritium element that ostensibly will last ten years or more. These do not require any batteries and that is both where the advantage and liability lies.

    It is an advantage because all one need do is install it on their slide and run it unconcerned about batteries for years. This is favored by men who travel in the outskirts of civilization where there may well be no batteries at all to be had. But it is also a liability in that the fiber optic and tritium are dependent on the existing light conditions to function at their utmost.

    Think of this in terms of tritium sights. Unless you go into a sufficiently darkened environment, you will not see them glow. This is the same situation with the tritium in the RMR. It must be dark enough for that amber dot to stand out. The idea is that if it is not dark enough to notice the tritium, you will have the fiber optic to power the dot. And 90% of the time the concept works fine. Where we run into trouble is when the available ambient light is insufficient to power the fiber optic, but the darkness is insufficient to allow the tritium to stand out.

    Examples below:

    1). Early pre-sunrise morning, or just at sunset. This is an area where identifying targets is also difficult and you would be unlikely to engage anyone at distance simply because you would not likely see them in the first place. Use of the handgun would be the same as if you were equipped with iron sights only.

    2). Engaging a threat in an illuminated environment while you are concealed in a dark environment. The situation is best illustrated with you inside the house wanting to engage a bad guy approaching from the outside. Use of the handgun would be the same as if you were equipped with iron sights only.

    3). When using a weapon mounted light. As soon as the light comes on, there is insufficient darkness to power the fiber optic (as it is directed toward the threat and not in an ambient situation), and yet insufficient darkness at that point to see the tritium. This is what some term as "washout". Again, use of the handgun would be the same as if you were equipped with iron sights only.

    At all other times excluding these, the Amber Dot RMRs serve as well as their red LED counterparts. So the question becomes how to minimize your liability when using the system in the three situations shown.

    We have found an interesting workaround. It is a tactical solution rather than a technical one. First is the use of standard tritium sights in conjunction with this category of RMR. I like my design of course as I think it is simpler than the others on the market (a front dot and a rear dot rather than three dots), but the same effect can be obtained using any of them.

    The shooter trains his eye to visually shift focus from where he expects the dot to be to the iron sights any time he has difficulty getting on the dot. This is the visual immediate action drill for a failed battery and just as valid for a washed out amber dot. And in minimal light but insufficient darkness we found that the tritium sights not only help keep the pistol aligned and usable under those varying light conditions, but also guides the eye back to the dot even if it is fainter than usual due to circumstance.

    With this in mind, the shooter can optimize the advantages and minimize the drawbacks of the Dual Illuminated RMR.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Southeast Florida
    Posts
    1,535
    Every time I read a conversation about the various RDS options available, it makes me wish it were easier to get one's hands on stuff to compare easily. I would really like to be able to go somewhere and be able to look through each RMR type, compare each dot/color, compare to the competing brands, etc. before putting down a lot of money on a quality product.

    Unfortunately most gun stores don't seem to care about this market segment, or they just don't move enough product to make it worth it. The last time I browsed the in-stock options at a local store I think I saw a single RMR on display.

    I remember how freaky it was the first time I looked through an ACOG--I couldn't see anything! The reticle was just a red blur. I spent some time playing with it and it would randomly snap into perfect focus but most of the time it was useless. I obviously have an issue with my eyes, but I would have been pretty pissed if I hadn't discovered that until I had bought the product and taken it home (return policies may help, but it's a poor substitute for "try before you buy").

    Seems to me the OP could easily isolate his problem if he had access to a lineup of optics to compare side by side. Once he knows if the issue is with his vision or not, then he can move on to all the other suggestions.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
    Posts
    44,854
    Well....if you attend a Suarez class not only do you get to do that but you also get free Italian beef sandwiches and beer...and get to hang with gratuitous killers for the weekend.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    SE Va
    Posts
    657
    Thank you. I get here infrequently, and on a tablet running Tapatalk, so I don't see the forums as I used to on the computer, and I missed the above article.
    I will have get to see one of these in person, to make sure it is sharp, as other fiber optic systems are. If so, it's finally time to go rds.
    Thinking the 7 moa, since it's the smallest.

    Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
    Gunsmith for Unique Armament Creations
    Class II/ 07 SOT Manufacturer
    Glock Advanced Armorer

    Liberty is not a cruise ship full of pampered passengers.
    Liberty is a Man-Of-War, and we are all crew.

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