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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike OTDP View Post
    I think you'll find that's normal. You would see the same thing with iron sights, especially if you had a gun with a long sight radius. The gouge from the Bullseye shooters (who have been using dots for ~30 years) is to focus on a smooth shot release. Don't try to snatch the shot.
    I'm not really trying to "snatch a shot", it's that I find that the pistol is aligned, I know that "muzzle to meat" is aligned (say at 12-15yds), but the dot is overtraveled in the window and I'm waiting for it to settle back to take the shot. I don't experience that with irons, and the distance to dot from my eye doesn't seem to be the cause, it appears to be unique to the Trijicon reticles. I'm okay with carbine, shotty, or even AR pistol as long as it's an EoTech or Aimpoint style dot, hence the question if there was an alternative to Trijicon.
    In order for the underprivileged and inept to feel adequate, the skilled and capable must be made stupid by decree.

    - Gabe Suarez, 12/13/2011

    “If a broad ban on firearms can be upheld based on conjecture that the public might feel safer (while being no safer at all), then the Second Amendment guarantees nothing.”

    - Justice Clarence Thomas

  2. #12
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    That's not unique to Trijicon red dots; it's "unique" to a red dot on a pistol. It's just showing how much your aim is really moving around. That's a software problem with your own training, not a hardware problem from a certain brand of red dot. Recognize that, and learn to control your aim better with the pistol; lots of dry fire will help.

    You don't see it on rifles because cheek weld with the stock keeps your head in the same position relative to the optic.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yondering View Post
    That's not unique to Trijicon red dots; it's "unique" to a red dot on a pistol. It's just showing how much your aim is really moving around. That's a software problem with your own training, not a hardware problem from a certain brand of red dot. Recognize that, and learn to control your aim better with the pistol; lots of dry fire will help.

    You don't see it on rifles because cheek weld with the stock keeps your head in the same position relative to the optic.
    Not really. I get the same experience with a Reflex on a carbine, and I don't experience that type of visual phenomenon with irons. My pistol control is pretty damn good.

    I spent hours and hours both live fire and dry fire, doing slow transition pans and then speeding them up, the results were always the same with the Trijicon, I would get a "swimming" sensation.

    It very well could be a visual thing with my 50+yr old eyes, but in the end, the way I got around it was to use the irons on wide transitions so I wouldn't have to wait for the dot to come back from over-travel. If it was a software issue as you suggest, I wouldn't have been able to successfully do that, but I did.

    Also, I don't "turret" on a wide transition. I typically come back to a compressed ready (how far I come back depends on how wide the transition is) and then I punch strait out. I shouldn't experience horizontal flutter with the dot when I do that, but I do.

    I got to the point where on more narrow transitions, I could make it work, but never like with irons or with a dot on a carbine, or even an AR pistol.

    Listen, I BELIEVE IN THE CONCEPT, and I've been shooting a lot for many years at a pretty high level. I'd like to "get in on the action".

    If there is no alternative to Trijicon, then fine, I'll stick with the irons and enjoy the dots on my long guns.

    Edited to add:

    Maybe this will help clarify what I see.

    I grabbed a Micro-clone out of my parts drawer and held it like I would a pistol and did some dry snap transitions. To exaggerate the phenomenon I did a turret transition instead of my normal compress and punch strait out, thus maximizing the odds that I would experience some sort of horizontal flutter, and of course I did.

    HOWEVER, it's the degree of flutter that differs dramatically for me. Picture an IDPA/IPSC head zone area for each target as I make the aggressive turret transition. With the micro-clone, my "flutter" is the difference between the nose and the eyeballs. With the Trijicon, it would be the nose and the ears.

    And of course, it's similar with irons, so when making an aggressive wider transition, I'm just as happy with an eyeball vs. bridge of the nose hit and I will confidently take the shot as soon as I seem I'm on target. With the Trijicon, I was experiencing visual confusion because what my years of training was telling me should be a center head shot hit...the RMR was telling my brain was the ears and I would wait for the dot to settle somewhere back toward the eyes at least before breaking the shot.

    The Trijicon DRAMATICALLY enhances my visual sensation of horizontal flutter where irons/Micro type sights it's a nominal effect.
    Last edited by SigPro09; 12-02-2017 at 11:00 PM.
    In order for the underprivileged and inept to feel adequate, the skilled and capable must be made stupid by decree.

    - Gabe Suarez, 12/13/2011

    “If a broad ban on firearms can be upheld based on conjecture that the public might feel safer (while being no safer at all), then the Second Amendment guarantees nothing.”

    - Justice Clarence Thomas

  4. #14
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    \1*2Rjqg0smtcZw1x9u1Zm2OA.jpeg
    Well lets just go back to Weavers and Irons....I guess we were wrong
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    [IMG]https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/633/1*2Rjqg0smtcZw1x9u1Zm2OA.jpeg[/IMG]

    Well lets just go back to Weavers and Irons....I guess we were wrong
    Now who isn't reading? I've stated multiple times that I BELIEVE IN THE CONCEPT, I WANT IN ON THE ACTION, and I SPENT 3.5 YEARS TRYING TO MAKE IT WORK with the RMR.

    Does that sound like someone who doesn't believe in dots on pistols???

    I asked a good faith question if there was an alternative to the Trijicon. I describe in detail what I visually experience with a Trijicon vs. alternative dots, see post #13 edit.

    I would NEVER tell somebody else not to try the dot. I'm making a good faith effort to try to find a way to make it happen for me.

    Damn it Gabe, don't accuse me of being a shooting Neanderthal when I've done everything I can practically do to try to experience what y'all are lucky enough to have the visual compatibility to experience when what may very well be a unique issue for me where I cannot.

    If there is not an alternative to the Trijicon (e.g. the Leupold) that I can try, then I guess I'm stuck with the irons on pistol and I get to enjoy the dots on my other platforms.

    Sheez...It's 12:53 my time, I'm hitting the sack.
    Last edited by SigPro09; 12-02-2017 at 10:58 PM.
    In order for the underprivileged and inept to feel adequate, the skilled and capable must be made stupid by decree.

    - Gabe Suarez, 12/13/2011

    “If a broad ban on firearms can be upheld based on conjecture that the public might feel safer (while being no safer at all), then the Second Amendment guarantees nothing.”

    - Justice Clarence Thomas

  6. #16
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    Dec 2012
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    Science, yo. When you focus on the front sight, you don't notice it moving very much. It still does, and you notice it some, just not as much because you're focused on it and your eyes/brain don't pick up quite as much of the smaller movements.

    On a red dot, any red dot, that's amplified because you're focusing on the target so you see the red dot floating around in the "background" (or rather foreground, since it's between you and the target). All handgun optics will have this effect. In fact, point any iron sight handgun and focus on the target and you'll notice the front sight bobs around. Between your hands and your head, you've got all these slight movements making the dot seem to waver.

    For that matter, take your rifle, point it downrange, and remove your support hand. Dot starts to wobble. Same thing. Carbine platforms are just way more stable so you don't notice as much of the "wobble"...because there isn't as much.
    "Charles, I shan't trust you aboard my ship, unless I carry you a prisoner; for I shall have you plotting with my men, knock me on the head and run away with my ship a-pirating."

  7. #17
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    Your aim point is wherever the dot is. If the dot is wandering around, so is your point of aim. You can't see that with irons nearly as easily; that's why the dot makes precision shots easier, it highlights any error. It really is you, not the brand of red dot.

    If your pistol control is so great and it's really the dot, show us what your groups look like at 15 or 25 yards. With and without a dot if you want.

  8. #18
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    Apr 2009
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    Listen, I am happy to accept Gabe's initial analysis that I probably have some freaky condition with my eyes that makes me an unusually bad candidate for the Trijicon.

    I understand that some amount of wobble is unavoidable. With irons or other dots, the wobble is significantly less. The increased wobble on the RMR diminishes my performance to the point of making it impractical for me.

    I was and am willing to pursue a practical alternative to the Trijicon because Red Dots on pistols is a concept I believe in.

    It isn't a matter of group shooting.

    1109171117.jpg1109171116c.jpg

    This was a cold run the other day from 23 yds with a G34 with Irons...part of a 7 or 8 target CoF. I can shoot a handgun.

    I'm sure I could get similar results with a Trijicon but at a much slower pace.

    Like I've said, I spent 3.5 years trying to make it work and came to the unhappy conclusion that on my best day with the Trijicon, my performance would be diminished by 5%.


    Again:
    - I believe in the concepts that Gabe has brought to market
    - I asked a simple question based on my negative experience with Trijicon optics BOTH for pistol AND for long guns, is there an alternative I could try
    - I don't have the same issue with competing optic technologies for EITHER pistol distances OR for long guns
    - If there is no alternative to the TrijIcon RMR, I can live with that, understanding the trade offs I'll have to deal with
    - I continue to believe for the vast majority of the population, the RMR is a great alternative...unfortunately, I can't make it work for me

    My apologies for getting a little "chippy" last night...I was tired and didn't appreciate being accused of being something I'm not, nor was I nor would I advocate against concepts which have been proven for the vast majority of shooters...I apparently have a physical defect in my vision (that by the way isn't correctible, I'm not a candidate for Lasik Surgery).

    Be thankful for the eyes the Good Lord has given you, it must be nice to experience with a handgun what I can only experience with a long gun.
    Last edited by SigPro09; 12-03-2017 at 05:27 AM.
    In order for the underprivileged and inept to feel adequate, the skilled and capable must be made stupid by decree.

    - Gabe Suarez, 12/13/2011

    “If a broad ban on firearms can be upheld based on conjecture that the public might feel safer (while being no safer at all), then the Second Amendment guarantees nothing.”

    - Justice Clarence Thomas

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    178
    Everyone will see a lot of micro- movement with a dot on a pistol without a stock. (The reason has been stated above.)
    Don't let it irritate you.
    Did you try the advice of focusing on the trigger press over the perfect alignment of the dot?
    This should make you faster and you can test the optimal compromise between speed and accuracy for several distances.
    Then compare it to your performance with iron sights after investing a bit of Training.


    If you actually think it's because of the rmr try one of the other sights on the market.
    Doctersight, Leupold, Shield...
    I think it will probably be the same and most likely nothing to worry about.
    just accept the movement of the dot and train.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    602
    Some friends of mine tried a red dot
    on one of my carbines several years
    ago & they both shot way off to one
    side. After some puzzled moments &
    a discussion, I was surprised to learn
    that both of them had a lazy eye. Neither
    were significant enough to be able to notice
    it while looking at them.

    Could something like that be causing you
    these issues?

    Also, with a red dot on a handgun, my
    presentation is always to irons first, and
    then the dot appears.

    Good luck.

    John
    "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" Alan Temby

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