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  1. #1
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    Default Best Alternative to RMR?

    I tried hard for 3.5 years to like my Trijicon (on an M&P Core), but like every other Trijicon I've used, the reticle "swims in the window" for me. I got to the point where I was about 95% of irons, but never could get the full benefit of the dot as I have with carbines, and even some of my shottys.

    I finally swapped the RMR toward a gen 4 G19 until I can find something that works better for me.

    Looking for something that's more like an Aimpoint dot that would fit on one of my Core adapters.

    Thanks
    In order for the underprivileged and inept to feel adequate, the skilled and capable must be made stupid by decree.

    - Gabe Suarez, 12/13/2011

    “If a broad ban on firearms can be upheld based on conjecture that the public might feel safer (while being no safer at all), then the Second Amendment guarantees nothing.”

    - Justice Clarence Thomas

  2. #2
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    Good luck.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Good luck.
    I was afraid of that.

    Eotech/Aimpoint style dots on a carbine or shotty, the dot is solid in the window and I definitely benefit from it.

    Trijicon reticles swim around in the window and I have to wait for them to settle enough so that I can take the shot, handgun transitions in particular magnify the issue for me.

    Irons it is I guess. I can make HS out to 25yds with irons, so I guess I'll have to live with them and save the dots for carbine/shotty.

    Thanks
    In order for the underprivileged and inept to feel adequate, the skilled and capable must be made stupid by decree.

    - Gabe Suarez, 12/13/2011

    “If a broad ban on firearms can be upheld based on conjecture that the public might feel safer (while being no safer at all), then the Second Amendment guarantees nothing.”

    - Justice Clarence Thomas

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigPro09 View Post
    I was afraid of that.

    Eotech/Aimpoint style dots on a carbine or shotty, the dot is solid in the window and I definitely benefit from it.

    Trijicon reticles swim around in the window and I have to wait for them to settle enough so that I can take the shot, handgun transitions in particular magnify the issue for me.

    Irons it is I guess. I can make HS out to 25yds with irons, so I guess I'll have to live with them and save the dots for carbine/shotty.

    Thanks
    Every dot is going to do that...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #5
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    Have you EVER come to AZ and trained in the red dot school? Either that or maybe the red dot is just not for you.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #6
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    My goodness...you really have not been reading have you...after all these years -Join Date Apr 2009?

    I imagine a year after my death...nobody will remember a f*cking thing we ever said will they? A sobering thing to realize.

    Simon Bolivar — 'All who have served the Revolution have plowed the sea.'


    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigPro09 View Post
    I tried hard for 3.5 years to like my Trijicon (on an M&P Core), but like every other Trijicon I've used, the reticle "swims in the window" for me.
    I think you'll find that's normal. You would see the same thing with iron sights, especially if you had a gun with a long sight radius. The gouge from the Bullseye shooters (who have been using dots for ~30 years) is to focus on a smooth shot release. Don't try to snatch the shot.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike OTDP View Post
    I think you'll find that's normal. You would see the same thing with iron sights, especially if you had a gun with a long sight radius. The gouge from the Bullseye shooters (who have been using dots for ~30 years) is to focus on a smooth shot release. Don't try to snatch the shot.
    I'm not really trying to "snatch a shot", it's that I find that the pistol is aligned, I know that "muzzle to meat" is aligned (say at 12-15yds), but the dot is overtraveled in the window and I'm waiting for it to settle back to take the shot. I don't experience that with irons, and the distance to dot from my eye doesn't seem to be the cause, it appears to be unique to the Trijicon reticles. I'm okay with carbine, shotty, or even AR pistol as long as it's an EoTech or Aimpoint style dot, hence the question if there was an alternative to Trijicon.
    In order for the underprivileged and inept to feel adequate, the skilled and capable must be made stupid by decree.

    - Gabe Suarez, 12/13/2011

    “If a broad ban on firearms can be upheld based on conjecture that the public might feel safer (while being no safer at all), then the Second Amendment guarantees nothing.”

    - Justice Clarence Thomas

  9. #9
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    That's not unique to Trijicon red dots; it's "unique" to a red dot on a pistol. It's just showing how much your aim is really moving around. That's a software problem with your own training, not a hardware problem from a certain brand of red dot. Recognize that, and learn to control your aim better with the pistol; lots of dry fire will help.

    You don't see it on rifles because cheek weld with the stock keeps your head in the same position relative to the optic.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yondering View Post
    That's not unique to Trijicon red dots; it's "unique" to a red dot on a pistol. It's just showing how much your aim is really moving around. That's a software problem with your own training, not a hardware problem from a certain brand of red dot. Recognize that, and learn to control your aim better with the pistol; lots of dry fire will help.

    You don't see it on rifles because cheek weld with the stock keeps your head in the same position relative to the optic.
    Not really. I get the same experience with a Reflex on a carbine, and I don't experience that type of visual phenomenon with irons. My pistol control is pretty damn good.

    I spent hours and hours both live fire and dry fire, doing slow transition pans and then speeding them up, the results were always the same with the Trijicon, I would get a "swimming" sensation.

    It very well could be a visual thing with my 50+yr old eyes, but in the end, the way I got around it was to use the irons on wide transitions so I wouldn't have to wait for the dot to come back from over-travel. If it was a software issue as you suggest, I wouldn't have been able to successfully do that, but I did.

    Also, I don't "turret" on a wide transition. I typically come back to a compressed ready (how far I come back depends on how wide the transition is) and then I punch strait out. I shouldn't experience horizontal flutter with the dot when I do that, but I do.

    I got to the point where on more narrow transitions, I could make it work, but never like with irons or with a dot on a carbine, or even an AR pistol.

    Listen, I BELIEVE IN THE CONCEPT, and I've been shooting a lot for many years at a pretty high level. I'd like to "get in on the action".

    If there is no alternative to Trijicon, then fine, I'll stick with the irons and enjoy the dots on my long guns.

    Edited to add:

    Maybe this will help clarify what I see.

    I grabbed a Micro-clone out of my parts drawer and held it like I would a pistol and did some dry snap transitions. To exaggerate the phenomenon I did a turret transition instead of my normal compress and punch strait out, thus maximizing the odds that I would experience some sort of horizontal flutter, and of course I did.

    HOWEVER, it's the degree of flutter that differs dramatically for me. Picture an IDPA/IPSC head zone area for each target as I make the aggressive turret transition. With the micro-clone, my "flutter" is the difference between the nose and the eyeballs. With the Trijicon, it would be the nose and the ears.

    And of course, it's similar with irons, so when making an aggressive wider transition, I'm just as happy with an eyeball vs. bridge of the nose hit and I will confidently take the shot as soon as I seem I'm on target. With the Trijicon, I was experiencing visual confusion because what my years of training was telling me should be a center head shot hit...the RMR was telling my brain was the ears and I would wait for the dot to settle somewhere back toward the eyes at least before breaking the shot.

    The Trijicon DRAMATICALLY enhances my visual sensation of horizontal flutter where irons/Micro type sights it's a nominal effect.
    Last edited by SigPro09; 12-02-2017 at 11:00 PM.
    In order for the underprivileged and inept to feel adequate, the skilled and capable must be made stupid by decree.

    - Gabe Suarez, 12/13/2011

    “If a broad ban on firearms can be upheld based on conjecture that the public might feel safer (while being no safer at all), then the Second Amendment guarantees nothing.”

    - Justice Clarence Thomas

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