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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
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    241

    Default Offensive disarms?

    I've done some experimentation with disarming techniques, and have noticed that some moves can be changed slightly to fire the gun while it's still in the bad guy's hand. Obviously it's not gonna be as accurate when you're wrestling for control, but is that a thing, or do those moves not really work?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Made it to Free America
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    12,903
    Ive had guns go "click" during take away drills; but its NOT something Id plan for... OTOH I have "shot" the guy I took the gun from--but that was intentional. It works the same with knives too.

    From a practical standpoint, it may look good in movies, it might even work in real life; but I can see a lot of things potentially going wrong that might take you out of the fight. Conversely I know a cop the did intentionally shoot himself through his own hand in order to hit a the bad guy he was grappling with (and losing). He lost a little meat on his hand but the BG was the real loser.... and to be clear it wasn't something he trained to do

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
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    5,439
    Remember RCAT

    Redirect (get the gun muzzle pointed away from you and/or move yourself off thr line of fire)
    Control (get hands on the gun and opponent's wrist)
    Attack (hit him)
    Takeaway (the gun)

    Anything is possible but I wouldn't spend any thought or time trying to get his gun to fire. Sure, it can work but I'd focus on redirecting and controlling the muzzle and his wrist...messing around with his trigger it's more likely something will go wrong.

    It's like pressure points. They can work but I wouldn't count on it. If they work it's just a bonus.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    153
    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    Remember RCAT

    Redirect (get the gun muzzle pointed away from you and/or move yourself off thr line of fire)
    Control (get hands on the gun and opponent's wrist)
    Attack (hit him)
    Takeaway (the gun)

    Anything is possible but I wouldn't spend any thought or time trying to get his gun to fire. Sure, it can work but I'd focus on redirecting and controlling the muzzle and his wrist...messing around with his trigger it's more likely something will go wrong.

    It's like pressure points. They can work but I wouldn't count on it. If they work it's just a bonus.
    As always Brent nails it.This is exactly what we are taught.We use airsoft to practice disarms as well.We have the 'bad guy" press the trigger as soon as he sees movement.It's a great example of how action almost always beats reaction.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    2,098
    As Brent described RCAT, a lot of those motions are big strong motions, not fine motor type stuff where you'd concentrate on something so small as possibly getting on the trigger. Keep up the testing and questions!
    www.ohioppt.com
    Twitter @Ohioppt

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    Western WA
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    Remember that he's fighting for his life too. And he's going to be doing his damndest to keep that trigger from going off if you get his gun pointed at him. And with all that focus on the weapon, there's a good chance it's going to malfunction and not fire anyway. While he's fighting to keep his gun I'd be working on attacking him with a free hand, with feet, headbutt, whatever you have available.

    All that said, if you get stuck wrestling for the gun and the opportunity comes, of course take advantage. Weird shit happens in a fight and you have to pay attention to any opportunities that open up.

    I'm good at joint locks but they aren't what I PLAN on using. I PLAN on striking and going for weapons. But if an easy joint attack opens up I'll take it. Think of the bad guy's trigger the same way.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Under the Black Flag
    Posts
    274
    We have been teaching Pat/Wrap/Attack for blades and gun for some time. Gross motor movements utilized with speed and aggression wins most times. And, if you lose, the guy was going to shoot you or stab you anyway.. I'd rather die with my boots on fighting...

    What I really enjoy it the use of Gabe's style of clearing the X whether unarmed or not, because closing the distance is the only way to beat the gun. Even Musashi knew this. "close with a man with a gun and you own him, close with a man with a blade and you must have more skill to triumph." Paraphrased of course.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,188
    Some thoughts-

    After I clear the muzzle, and the bad guys finger is still in the trigger guard, Im going to break it using both of my hands against the weapon whenever possible.

    I wont count on it being operable at that point to use against him, but I will make damn sure its not pointed at me.

    Likely human nature is that his head and hands will move towards the pain and attempt to wrap or clinch. Id be trying to stay ahead of the loop at this point to avoid a 2nd weapon by whatever means available... hopefully getting an angle to take his back and end the fight.
    ~~~

    Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
    1 Corinthians 16:13

    "It is good to be strong, but better to know how to use it."
    - Jimmy H. Woo (Chin Siu Dek)

    "Conquer we must; as Conquer we shall.
    - Sir Winston

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaneCorso View Post
    After I clear the muzzle, and the bad guys finger is still in the trigger guard, I’m going to break it using both of my hands against the weapon whenever possible.

    I won’t count on it being operable at that point to use against him, but I will make damn sure it’s not pointed at me.
    This. Break his finger.

    After taking his weapon away, we teach to immediately tap/rack his weapon. Shoot if necessary. That is the fastest method to get a gun on him. If you have to shoot, you'll know right away if the gun is operable or not.

    When I do take-aways, I usually end up with his gun in my left hand, so it's very easy to transition to drawing my own pistol with my right. When/if there's time I will draw my own gun because I KNOW it will go bang.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Central Texas
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    1,228
    Brent nailed it as usual. I remember back in the early 70's we were taught for a right hand shooter to step left , and with left hand push the gun off your center, then with right hand reach up underneath, grasp the frame/cylinder jamming it, while sweeping YOURSELF with the muzzle pull the right and twist left breaking his trigger finger. This was long before body armor.

    I immediately disliked this action and mentioned it to the FBI trained trainer. I was told to stfu and do as I was told. I knew I would never try that.

    jim
    2 Samuel 22; Psalm 139:21-22

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