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  1. #21
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    OK so regarding the 9mm vs 5.56 AR pistol. I long debated what caliber I wanted. The gun had to come in under 26.5 inches here in Michigan to qualify as a pistol and ride legally in a vehicle on my CPL. My barrel had to be 7.5 inches or shorter to make length. The 5.56 tends to have reliabilty issues under 10 inches. Muzzle blast of a 5.56 at 7.5 inches is severe and there is considerable loss in velocity. The 9mm AR pistol has less muzzleblast and greater velocity than a typical 9mm handgun, more points of contact, and greater sight radius. 9mm ballistics out of a 7.5 inch barrel basically give you published handgun muzzle velocity at 100 meters.

  2. #22
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    Aug 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pict View Post
    OK so regarding the 9mm vs 5.56 AR pistol. I long debated what caliber I wanted. The gun had to come in under 26.5 inches here in Michigan to qualify as a pistol and ride legally in a vehicle on my CPL. My barrel had to be 7.5 inches or shorter to make length. The 5.56 tends to have reliabilty issues under 10 inches. Muzzle blast of a 5.56 at 7.5 inches is severe and there is considerable loss in velocity. The 9mm AR pistol has less muzzleblast and greater velocity than a typical 9mm handgun, more points of contact, and greater sight radius. 9mm ballistics out of a 7.5 inch barrel basically give you published handgun muzzle velocity at 100 meters.
    If you might have to touch it off inside a car, you want it to be pistol caliber. Trust me, from 1st hand experience pistol calibers may be uncomfortable inside a car, rifle calibers are just damn painful and damaging inside a vehicle unless suppressed.
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  3. #23
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    Oct 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by coastalcop View Post
    If you might have to touch it off inside a car, you want it to be pistol caliber. Trust me, from 1st hand experience pistol calibers may be uncomfortable inside a car, rifle calibers are just damn painful and damaging inside a vehicle unless suppressed.
    Yup, as I was quoted as saying in Guns and Ammo, "shooting inside a vehicle is like having a knife fight in a phone booth". Even if you're good at it there will be negative impact.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
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  4. #24
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    May 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    An SBR'd Beretta Storm vs an RMR'd G18 with a can.....
    Attachment 54110

    Of course the discussion was 9mm vs 223...

    Same G18 vs an SBR'd AR.....Attachment 54111
    Brent looking at your pics, I don't see much difference in length between the Storm and the Glock PDW. Of course the Storm is SBRd and that adds some additional NFA issues. Likewise the pic of Glock PDW and SBRd AR doesn't show much length difference either, and as the SBRd AR could just as easily be a AR Pistol it avoids the SBR delivery and movement issues.

    It seems to me then that the real difference between the options is weight. I like the Glock PDW 21st century Stocked Pistol with the advantage of being a Non NFA item; but I love a 9mm AR or similar "SMG" type Pistol for when I'm exiting the Green Zone. So in keeping with the 9mm sometimes being a better choice than 556 topic, we're back to the SMG vs Assault Rifle debate--except debaters take sides and as Gabe has said real warriors don't have a favorite. They make choices based on what is available and the mission at hand.

    Since most of us aren't walking around with openly slung ARs, we're left with what we can conceal. Here the Glock PDW wins on both weight and cartridge choice for likely close range (PDW range) encounters; but is a AR Pistol in 9mm better? Hmm maybe, sometimes, maybe. The Glock PDW, as good as it is, is always gonna be a pistol (OK a Stocked Pistol), where a AR is a rifle at heart and in this case packaged as a SMG. We KNOW that a RMRd Glock (even in the "simple" handgun mode), can bust clay's at 100 yards, adding the PDW set up makes it a better tool for the 100 yard task and I think a SMG type weapon makes and even better tool. Extended barrels (to say 10") maybe better still for ranges that long. Shorter barrels on SMG type weapons (more in keeping with Glock lengths), make the weapon more portable.

    As we have said repeatedly no cartridge fired in doors (without a noise moderator), is comfortable, and while its better to shoot any weapon/cartridge in doors, rather than be shot--a 9mm is preferred to 556 if only from a noise and blast POV. Adding a suppressor goes from "ear safe" 556, to practically Hollywood quiet on a 9mm.

    At distances where a Handgun/SMG is viable, I chose one virtually every time over a rifle. Better-no, maybe just better suited to the task.

  5. #25
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    This gets us back to the premise of the thread...when 9mm BEATS 5.56.

    Smaller, lighter, handier, easier to carry and conceal, easier to shoot at close range, MUCH more pleasant to the ears whether with a suppressor or not. I think objectively the 9mm Glock PDW wins on all counts when indoors/in vehicle.

    Also keep in mind that the PDW in my pics is a Glock 17L (I mistakenly said G18) which is a good inch longer than a G17. In tight quarters, every inch matters (good set up for Nichols there). And a PDW is much shorter without a can.

    Edited to add: That Beretta Storm also has a shortened stock. It's shorter than the AR by the length of the flash hider. They're practically identical length with my suppressors.

    Doesn't look like it in the pic but the stocks are all aligned for an accurate length comparison. A G17 with a short can would be roughly the same length as my unsuppressed Storm.
    IMG_1521.jpg
    Last edited by Brent Yamamoto; 11-28-2017 at 12:59 PM.
    Brent Yamamoto
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  6. #26
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    Nov 2010
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    unnamed 2.jpg

    My G21 with Kriss mag and my 9" 300 BLK both folded and both wearing suppressors.

    Lengthwise there isn't much difference (especially if you discount the difference in can length which can be solved with a different can).
    But the weight of the PDW is almost exactly half that of the AR when both are unloaded at a few ounces under 3 lbs. A 9mm version (which I didn't bother to weigh) would come in a few ounces lighter still. Oh...and the G21 has a light which the AR lacks.

    Add to the nimbleness of its significantly lighter weight the reduced recoil and flash and the fact that I can pocket two Kriss (or two 9mm happy sticks) in the same space I can carry an AR mag of similar capacity and the PDW comes out a clear winner for indoor use.

    Also bear in mind that a Glock PDW set up even with an RMR and SI trigger will come in at a much lower price tag than an AR set up of any decent quality.

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  7. #27
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    May 2000
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    Back to the premise of the thread Brent? No way!!!

    You know the easiest way to change minds? Set up a shoot house exercise and run it in dim light with each weapon system...a short 5.56, and a 9mm (either a PDW Glock or an AR-9 like the Angstadt) - the only target that counts is a 3x5 card suspended on the face...BUT...wait for it....


    DO IT WITH NO HEARING PROTECTION
    .

    .
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #28
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    And yes....I have in fact done so...both in training and in real life.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #29
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    Mar 2011
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    Western WA
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    And remember that few things are hollywood quiet.

    Even suppressed, my 9mms all make noise indoors (I haven't been bothering with subsonics). Nothing I'd worry about in a fight, but I like my hearing so I don't like shooting it much indoors without hearing protection.

    My shorty 5.56 guns are fricking loud even suppressed outdoors. I have zero interest in shooting them indoors. I'm quite happy learning from the wisdom of others.
    Last edited by Brent Yamamoto; 11-29-2017 at 04:02 PM.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    UNited States
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    108
    I enjoy anecdotes like these, and gets me to re-evaluate my situations, tools, and mindset.

    The thesis: Why would we [myself] pick a 9mm like the Glock PDW or an AR-15 in 9mm?

    "teaching those who go into harm's way"

    Do I go into harm's way? No. I'm not LEM. I avoid harm's way when I can.

    "defensive weapon that can be carried by troops behind the front line such as military engineers, drivers, artillery crews or administrative staff"

    I'm not military or law enforcement.

    "used by special forces and by police units"

    I'm not special forces or police.

    I'm a slightly above average civilian:
    I need something to protect my family inside the home. (stakeout shotgun, though I do have reservation about the blast and wonder if something else might be better)
    I need something to protect my family on the property. (pistol)
    I need something to protect my family when shopping. (pistol)
    I need something to protect my family when on a walk. (pistol)
    I need something to protect my family around my vehicle. (pistol)

    I keep in mind for evaluation the Glock PDW, AR15 9mm, Angstadt UDP-9, Sig MPX, bullpups.
    Also keeping in mind the blast noise, suppression, disorientation, situational awareness.
    Also keeping in mind 300 BLK vs 9mm vs 556.

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