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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
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    Utah
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    9
    My guess is that 147gr 9mm is less damaging to the ears; and has less flash for indoor defense than the hotter 115 grain 9mm. This is what I use for my bedside Glock.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    3,100
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    All weapons intended for combat use...except perhaps a 12 ga, benefit greatly from a red dot.
    For sure, but they are a significant investment. The stocked pistol concept correctly lay dormant for the better part of the 20th century. I've had solid range time with the C-96, P-35, and Artillery model Luger with shoulder stocks and came away with the informed opinion that the juice isn't worth the squeeze. The RMR, combined with polymer technology and reilable, affordable, max capacity magazines are a total game changer with this weapons system.

    I built a 9mm AR pistol primarily because I've always wanted an smg and it fills the bill. Mine uses Uzi style mags so I lose the mag compatability with my G19 and 17 but that doesn't bother me. If I ever step outside with this weapon I'll have 7, 32 round mags along for the ride and if I survive firing all of them in combat they'll make a TV-14 movie out of it. My 7.5 inch 9mm AR creates far less muzzle blast and flash than a 10 inch 5.56, a weapon I have enough range time with to know is unpleasant to put it mildly.

    I'm very impressed with the G17 PDW even without the RMR. I EDC a G19 and having the G17 and PDW "not-a-stock" with a few happy sticks is a significant advantage. It is far lighter and more compact than my 7.5 inch 9mm AR. I am fully convinced that adding an RMR to my PDW, AR Pistol, or 5.56 AR will make them more effective. All things in due time. I really want a 9mm can.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,333
    Quote Originally Posted by Pict View Post
    .... I really want a 9mm can.
    Yes, you sure do.

    I got into suppressors before I got into red dots. In balance, the optic is a bigger advantage. Optics help pretty much all the time. You can run it on a full time carry and the times when it isn't an advantage are the exception not the rule. The silencer is something you can use sometimes but in those sometimes it's like nothing else. Honestly, it's mostly used for recreational shooting (at least by me) but once you own one you have it forever and it's an ace up your sleeve.

    A gun like the one Gabe is holding in the picture with a can nestled down inside the hand guard is something I've long wanted but haven't justified the expenditure.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    The Once Free State
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    12,378
    The lines have always been blurry between PDWs and SMGs. It started with stocked pistols, then Full Auto was added to Stocked Pistols which weren't quite up to the role (then). Is FA necessary? Or even preferred? Well yes there are times when a trained operator can benefit from FA; but not many and end even those can still be handled by and easier to train Semi Auto--frankly while cool, FA is really not worth the expense. That comes from a guy with A LOT of time on Full Auto and a vault full of SMGs/PCCs. If you'll pardon the plug, I'm the guy that wrote the book on PDWs SBRs PCCs and Short Barreled guns.

    I'm also the guy that still regularly carries a PDW. Yes the Glock PDW is lighter than just about anything else available. I have one, I like it; but I tend to carry other options more. I am a huge fan of the AR based 9mm PDWs. I have both Colt/Uzi versions and Glock mag types. I was initially hesitant to jump on the Glock mag version; but I have largely adopted it as a "perfect pair" when carrying a RMRd Glock.

    AR based 9mm PDW will never be as light as a Glock PDW. For me, I deal with the weight; but I recognize its there and lighter options are possible. Hell right now I'm wearing a Vz61 Skorpion (the original SKORPION) in a holster. Its big for a pistol (very big) and its "only" 32acp but it has zero recoil and with the stock its deadly and fast--faster than I can put lead on targets than with a handgun. NO its not regular carry. What I like about it is that its "carry-able" with the stock. If (WHEN) someone produces a stock for the Glock (or similar) than can be carried THAT will be the new winner. I think we're close; but we have to get past using AR buffer tubes and thumbhole adaptors.

    350px-CZ_Vz.61.jpg

    350px-Skorpion-ZA-VZ61_side.jpg
    NO I'm not suggesting 32acp beats 9mm. It doesn't! Its not a real choice for a daily PDW. I listed it only as a demonstration of a carry-able stocked pistol.
    Last edited by EDELWEISS; 11-27-2017 at 06:53 AM.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    The Republic of Pirates
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    44,905
    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    If (WHEN) someone produces a stock for the Glock (or similar) than can be carried THAT will be the new winner. I think we're close; but we have to get past using AR buffer tubes and thumbhole adaptors.
    Unless NFA is repealed, it won't matter what anyone comes up with for a "stock".
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    3,100
    The only problem I've had with my Glock PDW is the retention pin working out after extended firing, resulting in sudden disassembly. My best fix so far is to cut a ranger band and stretch it over the grip and pin, but I have yet to test fire it.

    Both the Glock PDW and 9mm AR fit in a daypack broken down, but the weight difference is significant. The AR pistol and 7 Uzi mags breaks down and bags up for easy, descrete carry in a vehicle, but I wouldn't want to lug it around all day just in case. The Glock PDW has a distinct advantage there.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    The Once Free State
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Unless NFA is repealed, it won't matter what anyone comes up with for a "stock".
    Sure but IF its a "brace" then it does matter and designing a Non AR based PDW around a AR buffer tube in 2017 is backward thinking. Sure its needed on AR type weapons but not on other designs. Imagine a Glock PDW with the brace that attached to the grip like Gen 4 grip adaptors with a flat "arm" for the brace... NOPE I don't have a clue how to actually make it happen but I can envision it and all within the legal Non NFA arm brace requirements

  8. #18
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    Sure but IF its a "brace" then it does matter and designing a Non AR based PDW around a AR buffer tube in 2017 is backward thinking. Sure its needed on AR type weapons but not on other designs. Imagine a Glock PDW with the brace that attached to the grip like Gen 4 grip adaptors with a flat "arm" for the brace... NOPE I don't have a clue how to actually make it happen but I can envision it and all within the legal Non NFA arm brace requirements

    Thanks for muddying up an otherwise perfectly clear discussion.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #19
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    The Once Free State
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    I'm really sorry you feel that way Gabe, my point in the first post, and which I tried to clarify in the second, was that a traditional handgun equipped with a slim and folding brace would make holster "carrying" a PDW a daily option. No doubt the 9mm you have in a holster beats even the "SMG" you have in a bag and all the better if that gun in the holster had a brace attached.

    I think Ive argued that (9mm et'al) "SMGs" are still viable and they remain even more so now with the push for head shots (armor and bomb vests). I still grab a "SMG" (or AR Braced Pistol) more than I grab a 556/223. Of those "SMGs" I have further divided the class into small concealable guns and larger GoToWar guns, with the Vz61 being in the smaller category and the Sterling, AR SMG, MP5, etc being my GoToWar choices. Smaller guns would also include M-10s; but the MAC is heavy by todays standards, especially with steel mags. My AR9K (5" barrel with folding buffer and Gearhead Works Tailhook brace), is a compromise. Its "lighter" than (older) heavy designs; its folds to fit in a small bookbag; but still fatter when folded then something like the MAC. When opened (unfolded) for a fight, its every bit as good as a MP5 and lighter with G18 mags that pair up with my RMRd G17. So yeah compromises and the gun you have is the one youll fight with....

    Ive been told that the weight difference of a loaded 30 round 9mm mag isn't significantly different than a mag of 30 rounds of 556--IDK but I do know I can carry two G18 mags in the same space as one AR mag. Is 556 a "better" round> sure sometimes; but in the context of PDW ranges, especially with the "headshot" need, then I think 9mm wins. Toss in longer ranges then the issue blurs; but longer ranges is out of the PDW realm.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    4,850
    An SBR'd Beretta Storm vs an RMR'd G17L with a can. I have much love for the Storm but the Glock PDW makes it obsolete in almost every way. I keep the Storm because I like it, not because it's better.
    IMG_1515.jpg

    Of course the discussion was 9mm vs 223...

    Same G17L vs an SBR'd AR. The AR is very light and handy, but for indoor, close-range problems I'd much prefer the Glock PDW. Even with a can the PDW is smaller, lighter and handier than a suppressed AR. Without a can...honestly I'd rather not touch off a rifle indoors if given the choice.
    IMG_1519.jpg
    Last edited by Brent Yamamoto; 11-28-2017 at 12:09 PM. Reason: Mistakenly said G18 when I meant G17L
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

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