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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Are you hunting for him, or is this a self defense thing. If there is enough light to know you are being attacked there is enough light to shoot them no?
    Excellent point. I have a handheld light in hand when moving between the car and business. No need for the pistol mounted light.

    Guess that is the rule of thumb here. If you are in pitch black rural or urban black out your light should be in your hand. You cannot draw and point a weapon light to investigate.
    Last edited by gssc; 11-17-2017 at 01:04 PM.

  2. #12
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    One thing that constantly amazes me is the lack of imagination in the gun world. I know that not everyone can think of everything, not everyone is capable of thinking around corners, or capable of imagining things completely out of their experience. But when other circumstances, ideas and different contexts are explained, laid out in plain view for all to see, it boggles my mind how people will hold onto their dogma.

    Human nature I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    The topic of this discussion is the laser. And more completely, its role and application today, in 2017

    Both systems will offer an easier method to verify alignment and index on target than traditional iron sights for close range proactive precision shots, or for long range shots. Regardless of manufacturer or devotee’s claims, neither one is faster nor a replacement for close range physical alignment dynamic shooting, or point shooting.

    No "sight picture" necessary as the laser can be projected regardless of a muzzle-eye relationship. This last point is an important one and one where the laser comes into its own. When firing from less than conventional or less than optimal positions, where even a red dot cannot be seen easily, the laser dot can be projected onto the threat.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

  3. #13
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    Another trope of the gun world - bad guy sees a red dot on his chest and he'll give up.

    Sure, maybe. But this strikes me as very thin justification for a laser on a gun. I tend to think that by the time I'm pointing a gun at someone, I'm already pressing the trigger.

    Being able to make a shot from odd positions where sight picture is not possible carries a lot more weight in my opinion. Yet I so seldom see lasers justified that way. Most justifications I see are for what I consider the wrong reasons (shooting in reactive situations, the bad guy giving up when he sees the laser, etc).

    It's a lot like pain compliance techniques. Yeah, pain compliance works great on some people...and those are exactly the kind of people I'm really not concerned about. Same with "oh I see a dot, I'll give up".
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

  4. #14
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    Nov 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    Green should be visible, I believe that blue is the color that has no IR signature but that said I haven't tested green to know for sure.
    That is correct. Blue lasers and light have no IR signature.
    Isaiah 54:17

    Deus dea traballo, dixo o enterrador.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    Another trope of the gun world - bad guy sees a red dot on his chest and he'll give up.

    Sure, maybe. But this strikes me as very thin justification for a laser on a gun. I tend to think that by the time I'm pointing a gun at someone, I'm already pressing the trigger.

    Being able to make a shot from odd positions where sight picture is not possible carries a lot more weight in my opinion. Yet I so seldom see lasers justified that way. Most justifications I see are for what I consider the wrong reasons (shooting in reactive situations, the bad guy giving up when he sees the laser, etc).

    It's a lot like pain compliance techniques. Yeah, pain compliance works great on some people...and those are exactly the kind of people I'm really not concerned about. Same with "oh I see a dot, I'll give up".
    No disagreement in "normal" scenarios, and I'm definitely not saying that this stuff is more important than the advantages that you are pointing out. The only place I see it having more relevance is in the lower-probability situations. I've seen many reports from soldiers about situations overseas where they had somebody approaching a checkpoint and refusing to stop until they lit them up with lasers. The report was that the laser had a psychological impact that went beyond pointed weapons and shouted commands. I can certainly believe that, especially if there is a language barrier, and especially at night where the laser is much more visible.

    I know in the normal world we say you shouldn't be pointing the weapon at somebody unless you already have justification to shoot (or you're really close). But in a situation where civilization has broken down and you're dealing with irate mobs, unruly crowds, a group that is indicating some level of threat, etc. there could easily be times where you aren't ready to shoot but you want to communicate in no uncertain terms that you are serious about whatever it is that you're saying. A visible laser is just one more tool that might help you accomplish that.

    And if I'm in that situation where I'm holding a gun on somebody and my decision to shoot them will depend on whether they back away (or let me back away) or continue escalating the threat, the more I can be focused on the threat and not my aiming mechanism, the better. A red dot is nice in that regard, but it's still inferior to being able to look over the top of your gun and use the laser. (in my humble and inexperienced opinion, of course!)

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike135 View Post
    No disagreement in "normal" scenarios, and I'm definitely not saying that this stuff is more important than the advantages that you are pointing out. The only place I see it having more relevance is in the lower-probability situations. I've seen many reports from soldiers about situations overseas where they had somebody approaching a checkpoint and refusing to stop until they lit them up with lasers. The report was that the laser had a psychological impact that went beyond pointed weapons and shouted commands. I can certainly believe that, especially if there is a language barrier, and especially at night where the laser is much more visible.

    I know in the normal world we say you shouldn't be pointing the weapon at somebody unless you already have justification to shoot (or you're really close). But in a situation where civilization has broken down and you're dealing with irate mobs, unruly crowds, a group that is indicating some level of threat, etc. there could easily be times where you aren't ready to shoot but you want to communicate in no uncertain terms that you are serious about whatever it is that you're saying. A visible laser is just one more tool that might help you accomplish that.

    And if I'm in that situation where I'm holding a gun on somebody and my decision to shoot them will depend on whether they back away (or let me back away) or continue escalating the threat, the more I can be focused on the threat and not my aiming mechanism, the better. A red dot is nice in that regard, but it's still inferior to being able to look over the top of your gun and use the laser. (in my humble and inexperienced opinion, of course!)
    FWIW the Middle East might as well be a different world in this conversation. Their lack of understanding of these things is what scares them into giving up when they see the laser.
    They’re also generally more scared of someone sticking an M9 in their face than they are of a SAW.
    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit." -Aristotle

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike135 View Post
    No disagreement in "normal" scenarios, and I'm definitely not saying that this stuff is more important than the advantages that you are pointing out. The only place I see it having more relevance is in the lower-probability situations. I've seen many reports...
    Fair enough and I'll agree that having more options is always a good thing.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by callmebubba View Post
    FWIW the Middle East might as well be a different world in this conversation. Their lack of understanding of these things is what scares them into giving up when they see the laser.
    They’re also generally more scared of someone sticking an M9 in their face than they are of a SAW.
    lol but they're coming here, right?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike135 View Post
    I've always thought lasers fit into that category where there's possible upside with minimal downside, when done right. .
    Yup...this right here
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    One thing that constantly amazes me is the lack of imagination in the gun world. I know that not everyone can think of everything, not everyone is capable of thinking around corners, or capable of imagining things completely out of their experience. But when other circumstances, ideas and different contexts are explained, laid out in plain view for all to see, it boggles my mind how people will hold onto their dogma.

    Human nature I suppose.
    Don't worry...they will steal everything we imagine and pretend they invented it themselves like some "gun sages" or something.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

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