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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    SE New Mexico
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    1,044
    Quote Originally Posted by emtdaddy1980 View Post
    Ambulances and hospitals are all NPEs...... as always big boy rules apply.
    Absolutely.
    Trump 2016...because f@&k you.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    In liberal occupied Amerika, WA state
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    4,051
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    ....and shoes...lets not forget shoes.
    The most important lesson learned from watching Die Hard.
    Matt
    John 14:6
    My Hero DID walk on water!

    IRS = KGB

    When your enemy views death as a promotion, you know you are in for a fight.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    The Republic of Pirates
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    44,852
    By the way...here is something I want to see...a mythbuster.

    Have your buddies buy a modern vest such are are available here in the usa. Put it on a pig carcass like I did back in the day, and with the ammo commonly available for pistol use in the USA..."burn through it". I'd really like to see that and will pay for a video like that if it can be done in one magazine. Otherwise...it really is kinda not true no matter who says it.

    In Ferro Veritas
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #44
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
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    44,852
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hale View Post
    Hope this is appropriate for our discussion.
    It is...sadly way too many believers have -

    1). Never read the Old Testamant
    2). Are infatuated with Stephen and despise Joshua and Samson
    3). Have adopted the peacenik religion of the American hippy
    4). Are pussies.

    As it says in the Field Manual...let that never be said of us.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  5. #45
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
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    Quote Originally Posted by krav51 View Post
    Not sure how you would "burn through " a plate with 9mm.In addition people here with knowledge on the subject have indicated even a pistol round will detonate a vest.
    See my answer
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #46
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
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    44,852
    So if a sign is going to cause you to by choice be absolutely defenseless, I don't know what to tell you...nor will I even attempt to try. Good luck to you.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    583
    Quote Originally Posted by Diz View Post

    On BA. I know Gabe teaches headshots, but I wanted to offer another point of view. The guys I train with in NC are SF vets, and currently train many clients, including FBI and Border Patrol. Their SOP is to shoot into the ground, center mass, BA or not. The say this is the best technique they've found, in many gunfights, because regardless of what the dude is wearing on his chest, if you mag dump in the same spot you will burn through it. This includes suicide vests. They also add in most of their fights, when the dude is taking rounds, his head is typically moving all over the place, and extremely difficult to hit, so they keep focused center-mass and burn the guy down.
    "Burning through" armor is an interesting concept. I am assuming, given the cited clientele, that they are using this tactic in a team scenario wherein the BG is being engaged by multiple team members with long guns. If rifles are involved soft armor is ineffective from the start. Ceramic hard armor might break with enough hits. AR500 plates, I don't think you can hammer through. With handguns, you're not burning through anything in the way of armor. Fortunately the BG has Hicks Law working against him.

    On the other hand, if there is just an individual, not a team, an individual who will be the entire focus of the shooter once things start, burning through his armor has a high probability of ending badly. If you believe otherwise you may have a Dunning-Kruger issue.
    Discipline is just choosing between what you want now and what you want most.


    Gunsite Orange, API -250 Sept. 78 (Everybody starts somewhere)
    CRG - July 11
    PSP - April 12
    TMCO - Sept. 12
    TWOTU since 2011

    Glock Certified Armorer


  8. #48
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Pineland, USA
    Posts
    140
    For the record, SF guys doing CBQ in a high threat arena means the primary weapons are 5.56 in 77 gr OTM usually through a 14.5" bbl. Someone ASSumed 9mm was being discussed. I don't know shit from shinola about DOJ testing, but I think they do multiple rounds with at least 1 1/2"-2" spacing. If you pound a mag dump in the same spot on a ceramic plate, that's a huge assumption that nothing will get through. No I haven't done it, no I don't plan on doing it (unless someone wants to volunteer a plate), but I trust the guys who told me that, so I thought I'd pass it on, for your consideration.

    Within the context of what these guys did in the last 10 years. That means it may or may not apply to you. As the man said, take what's useful.

    I know you guys have done a lot of good R&D with FoF the last few years, and I don't doubt you have learned much from it. But to not at least consider other T,T,P's is, well, pretty short-sighted, IMHO. But like the man said, do what you want. I don't care either.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    4,849
    SF context vs the civilian carrier context are completely different. It is mildly interesting to me what SF does, and if their tactics make sense for MY context then it's something to consider.

    But an SF TEAM, in the Middle East, all carrying rifles does not at all equate to my circumstances as a lone civilian with a pistol. THAT is what we are talking about.

    Just because SF does it that way is not a good enough reason to adopt their methods. Different context, different tactics.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
    Posts
    44,852
    Mine in bold

    Quote Originally Posted by Diz View Post
    For the record, SF guys doing CBQ in a high threat arena means the primary weapons are 5.56 in 77 gr OTM usually through a 14.5" bbl.

    And you did not say anything about 5.56 and 77 grain anything in your original post did you?. Instead you suggested a different way of looking at apples when you were really discussing oranges. We were discussing active shooter intervention by those who happen to be there...ostensibly armed with pistols.


    Someone ASSumed 9mm was being discussed.

    Well...that was the gist wasn't it? An active shooter event with what you have. I think I mentioned that Wellford was an anlomaly since he had a rifle. You can do things with a rifle you cannot do with a pistol...but pistols are in fact what we have with us 24-7. Perhaps I should read my own post again...to be sure.

    Oh look - "On weapons - Yes, I know Willeford used a rifle to kill the gunman (he gets the score, I am not buying the suicide thing). But that was a fortunate happenstance. These events will invariably be handled with the pistol that is already in your belt rather than the rifle you go and get. And given that armor is prevalent, the traditional notion of center of mass shots is no longer valid. The face is the target. The ear canal is the target. The base of the neck is the target. And those may be preceded by shots to any exposed body part vis-a-vis counter-armor tactics.


    I don't know shit from shinola about DOJ testing, but I think they do multiple rounds with at least 1 1/2"-2" spacing. If you pound a mag dump in the same spot on a ceramic plate, that's a huge assumption that nothing will get through. No I haven't done it, no I don't plan on doing it (unless someone wants to volunteer a plate), but I trust the guys who told me that, so I thought I'd pass it on, for your consideration.

    By assigning attribution to "SF" you are suggesting you do know more as well as challenging those things which we think are correct here. Things we train and teach and hang our lives on. You don't get to do that without providing proof. So until I get a video of SF guys burning through a vest with 9mm ammo in less time than my people can do head shots.....

    Shooting three rounds to the face will take X amount on time. Shooting three plus rounds into a plate - with at least 1 1/2"-2" spacing will take X plus whatever. In the interim the bad guy is still active. Nonetheless i am willing to be proven totally wrong (the quest of many). Feel free to have you guys set me straight but I am simply not buying the shooting through with pistol ammo. Sorry.


    Within the context of what these guys did in the last 10 years. That means it may or may not apply to you. As the man said, take what's useful. I know you guys have done a lot of good R&D with FoF the last few years, and I don't doubt you have learned much from it. But to not at least consider other T,T,P's is, well, pretty short-sighted, IMHO. But like the man said, do what you want. I don't care either.

    Hearsay on TTPs are marginally interesting and I don't plan to change anything based on that. I am willing to be proven totally wrong (the quest of many). Feel free to have you guys set me straight but I am simply not buying the shooting through with pistol ammo. And when we add the modern likelihood of self detonated IEDs........
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

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