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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Illinois (the good part)
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    ....and shoes...lets not forget shoes.
    Yes, as a youngster growing up on the farm, shoes were optional most of the summer, regardless of the terrain to be traversed. Sadly, my barefoot days are far, far behind me.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    The Once Free State
    Posts
    12,374
    I have to say I'm somewhat surprised that NO ONE in the church had a handgun on them. IDK but come'on nobody in a rural Texas community had a gun? AND not one of them was pissed off enough at any point to charge the guy and at least try a body tackle?

    YEP the lessons learned are hard ones; but they only matter if learned. We need to start with warriors.

    Our hero, yep I do think he is a hero, because at least he reacted, unprepared yes; but still he reacted. We can hope HE also learned to be ready for the next time--because there WILL be a next time.

    NPEs are only NPEs for those who follow the rules. They DONT STOP bad guys and they only stop good guys who aren't willing to fight. WE have discussed NPE approved weapons and even just saying F the NPE rules. WE have discussed concealed means CONCEALED; but it only matters if WE follow through.

    Lesson Learned > Be a WARRIOR

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Palmer, Alaska
    Posts
    6,695
    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    NPEs are only NPEs for those who follow the rules. They DONT STOP bad guys and they only stop good guys who aren't willing to fight. WE have discussed NPE approved weapons and even just saying F the NPE rules. WE have discussed concealed means CONCEALED; but it only matters if WE follow through.
    I believe it is entirely possible that the Texas legislature will indeed learn a lesson from this tragedy, at least in regard to churches. Texas has a habit of waiting for an atrocity before learning that their gun control laws don't work. What if we learned that any one of the parishioners at that Church had a CHL? It would then be reasonable to surmise that the reason they didn't have the gun on them in the sanctuary was out of respect for the law. That would be a pretty strong argument in favor of changing the law.

    I am befuddled at the number of pro-gun people who are repeating the party line that "it's too soon to talk politics." That's crap. It's a great time to talk about gun control laws. To start with, we should talk about removing--or at least whittling down--the laundry list of places you can't carry a gun even with a CHL. Many of us here are going to carry in those places anyway, but wouldn't you rather it be legal? What is the downside to decriminalizing CCW? We would be able to relax a little more, knowing that we only had to fear the bad guys and not also the cops. And those places would gain a little deterrent protection because they would no longer be "gun free zones" (also known as free fire zones). So let's talk about politics. Let's talk about changes to the law. Good changes.
    Virtute et Armis

  4. #24
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
    Posts
    44,892
    Warriors are above politics...we do whatbwe see as necessary regardless of the signs. But yes...liberal laws are as responsible as the shooter in the death of the innocents.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    549
    A charge of people, especially from multiple directions would have been much harder to slaughter for sure. I wonder if some who may have done that were waiting for a failure or a reload or out of ammo chance to do that but the worm had 15 mags, more than usual, but still in this day people should know that hiding in a small room is only going to buy you a few seconds and if it last longer you gotta move on the guy.

    I have a bag with at least 7 rifle mags and a couple of glock mags as well as a large fighting knife and TQ etc. with a shoulder strap always ready at home and when I have a rifle or pdw with me in the car. I have bags set up for 556 and 300blk and 9mm in different colors and different locations in the house so no matter what gun I have out or with me in the car I have a grab and go close at hand.

    I quit attending our church for several reasons but one of which is that it is a felony to go there armed with a firearm. Funny thing is that to do good and love others you first have to be alive. and the state and the church requiring me to be without a firearm essentially show that they really don't care about individual people by disregarding our ability to defend ourselves and continuing to do so even with so many attacks at churches.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    1,112
    In 1993 Colin Ferguson started killing people on a LIRR commuter train, reloading a Ruger P89 at least once. Passengers jumped him and kicked his ass, holding him for Nassau CO cops who arrested him.

    WTF happened in Texas?
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa


    2, 11, 17. And a wakeup.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Palmer, Alaska
    Posts
    6,695
    Quote Originally Posted by valian View Post
    I quit attending our church for several reasons but one of which is that it is a felony to go there armed with a firearm.
    Are you sure about that? I hear people say stuff like this all the time, and they are often wrong. They heard somebody say it is a felony, or they just assumed it is a felony, or they don't realize the difference between a felony and a misdemeanor. I am an advocate of learning the law, even when you intend to break it. Know the limits. Know how far you can push things. And know the penalties. There are consequences for getting caught with a gun some place that you aren't supposed to have one, and there are consequences for not having a gun when you need one. Usually, the consequences for the former are really not as bad as people expect. I don't even pause now before committing misdemeanors. But I usually stop and think for a moment before felonies.

    I would suggest looking up the law in your state. It also may be worth a few bills to buy an hour of an attorney's time to ask him how things seem to work in actual practice. How serious are the local cops? How harsh are the local judges and prosecutors? How much would it really cost you if you got caught? Lawyers are generally very receptive to these conversations. We'd much rather explain the system to someone before they get arrested.
    Virtute et Armis

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    890
    Not sure what state that valian is a resident of, but Utah State law makes it a class a misdemeanor to carry a firearm into a church that publishes a firearm prohibition in a newspaper at least once yearly.

    How well would that be enforced??? Probably not too well given local law enforcement except for maybe in SLC.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,519
    Quote Originally Posted by LawDog View Post
    Are you sure about that? I hear people say stuff like this all the time, and they are often wrong. They heard somebody say it is a felony, or they just assumed it is a felony, or they don't realize the difference between a felony and a misdemeanor. I am an advocate of learning the law, even when you intend to break it. Know the limits. Know how far you can push things. And know the penalties. There are consequences for getting caught with a gun some place that you aren't supposed to have one, and there are consequences for not having a gun when you need one. Usually, the consequences for the former are really not as bad as people expect. I don't even pause now before committing misdemeanors. But I usually stop and think for a moment before felonies.

    I would suggest looking up the law in your state. It also may be worth a few bills to buy an hour of an attorney's time to ask him how things seem to work in actual practice. How serious are the local cops? How harsh are the local judges and prosecutors? How much would it really cost you if you got caught? Lawyers are generally very receptive to these conversations. We'd much rather explain the system to someone before they get arrested.
    I don't even give misdemeanors a moment's hesitation. I can plead those down to nothing with my (lack of) record. Felonies, I do a quick risk assessment. It's usually worth it.
    ===========================
    Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    549
    Quote Originally Posted by LawDog View Post
    Are you sure about that? I hear people say stuff like this all the time, and they are often wrong. They heard somebody say it is a felony, or they just assumed it is a felony, or they don't realize the difference between a felony and a misdemeanor. I am an advocate of learning the law, even when you intend to break it. Know the limits. Know how far you can push things. And know the penalties. There are consequences for getting caught with a gun some place that you aren't supposed to have one, and there are consequences for not having a gun when you need one. Usually, the consequences for the former are really not as bad as people expect. I don't even pause now before committing misdemeanors. But I usually stop and think for a moment before felonies.

    I would suggest looking up the law in your state. It also may be worth a few bills to buy an hour of an attorney's time to ask him how things seem to work in actual practice. How serious are the local cops? How harsh are the local judges and prosecutors? How much would it really cost you if you got caught? Lawyers are generally very receptive to these conversations. We'd much rather explain the system to someone before they get arrested.
    Yes it's a felony, written into the law. I'm a ccw instructor in my state. A new bill that would have stripped the church provision out of the ccw law among other things had the church provision stripped out in a midnight session just before passage at the paranoid urging of pastors and church groups in the past year. So for now still a felony in Ohio unless you have permission from your church.

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