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  1. #1

    Default Factory barrel accuracy: How much can I get?

    The weapon: Suarez slide with all factory internals, Trijicon suppressor night sights installed. RMR-01 mounted. All other parts are box stock. Ammunition ranges from Tula crap to Speer Brass case, but the accuracy appears pretty similar regardless. I can do head shots on a B-27 all day at 25 yards, but not at 50. At 50 yards maybe I get one shot out of three in the head zone. I will continue practicing until I get what I want. That said, how much of the problem is the barrel, and how much is the trigger nut? (namely, me)

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnukedude View Post
    The weapon: Suarez slide with all factory internals, Trijicon suppressor night sights installed. RMR-01 mounted. All other parts are box stock. Ammunition ranges from Tula crap to Speer Brass case, but the accuracy appears pretty similar regardless. I can do head shots on a B-27 all day at 25 yards, but not at 50. At 50 yards maybe I get one shot out of three in the head zone. I will continue practicing until I get what I want. That said, how much of the problem is the barrel, and how much is the trigger nut? (namely, me)
    50m head shot should be money in the bank even with a factory barrel. I would say it's both shooter and ammo rather than barrel issues. That being said the SI barrel is far superior to factory and groups way tighter than factory in my hands.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
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    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

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    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

  3. #3
    Thanks. How tight should I be grouping with the aforementioned ammo at that range before a barrel will give me anything useful? Also, yes I know the Russian steel case isn't helping, but is the Speer brss case stuff good enough that it isn't contributing to the problem? If it isn't good enough, what economical load would be?

  4. #4
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    Oct 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnukedude View Post
    Thanks. How tight should I be grouping with the aforementioned ammo at that range before a barrel will give me anything useful? Also, yes I know the Russian steel case isn't helping, but is the Speer brss case stuff good enough that it isn't contributing to the problem? If it isn't good enough, what economical load would be?
    When I'm on I'm one hole at 5yards, about 1" groups at 7 yards 1.25-1.5" at 10 free hand. Bag/bench it at 10 and check your groups to see what works best, keep in mind that you should zero with your carry ammo and not your practice ammo and there will be some difference in consistency and performance.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    215
    To be fair what the gun is capable of vs what the shooter is capable of would really be two different issues. Most firearms are capable of shooting far more accurately than you would expect. The most reliable way to show this is to remove the shooter from the equation and run a ransom rest device. If you know someone such as a gunsmith that would let you use one, it would allow you to see what your pistol as configured is capable of.

  6. #6
    Excellent. Thank you.

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Accuracy is the product of uniformity. More uniformity = more accuracy. Tell me this is not right if I am mistaken.

    Here are the variables -

    1). The pistol mechanism (frame, slide, fitting, etc.). Back in the day semi-auto pistols were extremely unreliable and thus the push to make them reliable above all else became the focus. News flash...its not 1955 any longer...even a Kel-Tec is reliable. When I say I want my pistol reliable I am saying that I want it to work 100% with the ammunition I will carry to shoot terrorists in the face. I could not care less if it is not 100% reliable with trash ammo since i am not carrying trash ammo. I will not sacrifice accuracy to be reliable with trash ammo.

    2). The trigger and its characteristics. No creep or grinding feeling when working the trigger. Smooth take up to the point or resistance (the Wall), and a clean and crisp break so the weapon can fire without the alignment being moved from trigger pressure. I do a demo in class where I place a fired 9mm case on the front sight and press the trigger without dislodging it. That is what we want. The ninnyhammers that want heavy and difficult triggers are fools. But so are the bullet golfers that want sub 2 pound triggers with no take up. My triggers use a factory Glock 3 pound connector, standard strength springs and one of our triggers. It breaks clean at 4 pounds. Clean enough to not disturb a 9mm case balanced on the front sight.

    3). The sighting system. A properly installed red dot solves all these issues. It is easy to index on target, and easy to hold on that index while the trigger is operated. No more need be said here other than it must be zeroed.

    4). The ammo. This is where Billy Bob Gunguy misses the point. He buys a top shelf weapon and then is disappointed that his buddy's reloads (100 rounds for $3.00 don't you know) doesn't group for shit at 15 yards. Ammo like high end gasoline in a performance car is the difference that will allow the top shelf weapon to shoot like a top shelf weapon. When it comes to ammo it is also about quality and not quantity. I may work on CQB "'run and gun" shooting with whatever is cheap. But when I shoot for zero or accuracy, I run a magazine of what I am carrying for combat. Currently Corbon or Hornady. Ten rounds of this is every month is not going to kill your 401(k). Otherwise I shoot quality FMJ ammo that I have shot and proven for accuracy and reliable function. I do not shoot Tula, Winchester White Box (it used to be good but not so much), or any reloads.

    5). The barrel. A poorly made barrel that does not fit well, or is designed exclusively for "reliability" will never shoot up to any sort of standards. Like eye surgery, everything has a price. A barrel sold as a match barrel for $50 is not what it is being sold as. Our barrels are formed from Lothar Walther blanks. I know that may not be as importnat as how the barrel looks on the outside to some (fluted and dimpled show barrels), but that is what we use...look it up and you will know why. A great barrel with great ammo in a tuned pistol with a great trigger will allow the shooter to express every last drop of skill that he has where a weapon without those characteristics will not.

    6). The final variable is the shooter. It has been said that a good indian with a poor quality arrow will prevail against a poor indian with a great arrow. That may be true, but what they do not say is that the good indian will do far better with a good arrow than with a poor one making the comparison irrelevant. As well, the poor indian with a good arrow will be able to develop faster and not be hampered by the use of poor equipment. The selection of poor equipment is what i see as one of the major obstacles students face when they come to class. But skill must be in place to take advantage of the high end modern katana. And skill does not come from "I've been shooting all my life" stories. That may be the case but experience does not equate with skill, nor will equipment imbue skill into the buyer. You can however buy skill by attending training.

    Put all those together in one package and you have a deadly combination. Fail to address one, and you will not have the best package you can have. Nothing is free.



    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    AZ
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    I’ve had good luck with fiocchi ammo for training. Reliable and accurate for the price.
    Last edited by TMAC; 10-26-2017 at 06:01 PM.
    No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him. 2 Tim 2:4

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  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2016
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    603
    Here was my thread when I was
    on this same path a few months
    ago.

    The short answer for me was
    Critical Duty 135 Gr +P ammo.

    My accuracy images are near the
    middle of page 2.

    John

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...-my-RMR-d-17-4
    "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" Alan Temby

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny C! View Post
    Here was my thread when I was
    on this same path a few months
    ago.

    The short answer for me was
    Critical Duty 135 Gr +P ammo.

    My accuracy images are near the
    middle of page 2.

    John

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...-my-RMR-d-17-4
    Hopefully for quality ammo, 124gr Gold Dots, either Speer or Georgia Arms will do as that is the normal carry load, and what I have at hand. At least, this speaks to Gabe's suggestion to zero using carry ammo. This would be done from the bench, which Greg Nichols recommended. In the meantime, I came across an article in Concealment magazine featuring a comparison between about four pistols in the Army's new handgun solicitation. One of the test guns in the article was a Glock 17. They got slightly smaller than 1" groups out of theirs at 20 yards from the bench. While this doesn't constitute a guarantee of what the weapon I am using is capable of, both were factory barrels AFAIK, so it IS an indication of the weapon's built in performance. Indeed the 50 yard shot SHOULD be money in the bank. Clearly, I have work to do to upgrade the shooter some more before the hardware follows, although I suppose a trigger upgrade COULD possibly help. Gabe's exercise with the spent casing on the sight post during dry fire is doable with this weapon, but extremely difficult.

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