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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    1

    Default RDS on LEO Duty pistols

    How widely accepted are RDS on LEO duty pistols.
    How wide spread are departments allowing this?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    947
    The 3 local PDs and one county sheriff do not allow modifications, including changing of sights. I just spoke to a friend of mine who is local PD where I live and I told him about the RDS and Gabe’s L mount but he said it wasn’t allowed. Too bad LEOs are so limited by policy.
    No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him. 2 Tim 2:4

    - I prefer dangerous FREEDOM to peaceful SLAVERY

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    - Be HUMBLE or get HUMBLED

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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Southeast Florida
    Posts
    1,536
    I asked that same question last year... I'd be curious if much has changed since then:

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...-duty-handguns

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Kally-four-nee-ya
    Posts
    141
    My last agency allowed them on personally-owned guns. But some background on that:

    At my last agency I was an Inspector for a Distirct Attorney's Bureau of Investigations in a big CA city/county. (About 1.2 million day time population.). I ran the Firearms Training Program and was Lead Instructor before I retired. We had about 40 sworn positions. We wore suits and ties every day unless serving warrants or at a physical training. Casual Friday was sport coat and slacks without a tie.

    We used to buy a new-hires a duty weapon which they registered/retained as their personnel property. We would approve any "high-quality handgun of proven duty reliability from a reputable manufacturer in 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP." (Policy previous to my hiring.). We had mostly Glocks, a number of Sigs, a few 1911's, a couple of Berettas, and an HK. We could carry back-ups/secondary's. Most ran J-frames on the ankle. A few (myself included) switched to the Glock 43 for a secondary. (.380 ACP was approved for back-up/secondary but we did not supply the ammo. So only one person ran a .380 ACP as a secondary.) Of course we had special exceptions for special people who carried a Glock 43 and/or Shield as a primary. (Against my wishes but I was overridden.).

    About a year before I retired, we were told we would no longer buy new-hires their own gun. We would issue the Glock 23 Gen4. (I wanted the issue gun to be the Glock 19, but I was overridden.) New-hires could use a personally-owned firearm if it met existing policy.

    I was able to get RDS's approved on personally-owned guns, but I specified only Trijicon RMR's and Leupold Deltapoints. Once the Shield RMS and S.I. Guttersnipe concept was out and seemed pretty proven for it's specific use, we allowed those on the Glock 43 and similar guns as used in appropriate context. These recommendations as well as the conversion training were directly from the incredible knowledge and experience here at WarriorTalk and from my attending a Complete Pistol Gunfighter training with Mr. Suarez, Mr. Yamamoto, and Mr. Nichols in Prescott. (Humble thanks!)

    The reason I was able to get RDS's approved was due to the political restrictions we had on other weapons systems. Our Inspectors were/are responsible for security and Active Shooter Response for the majority of our large Hall of Justice, (you can see it in some of those old "Unwashed Harold" movies from the '70's), as well as another off-site building. (The former building where "Rolling Stone" magazine was founded and originally printed.). The Hall of Justice has several floors of hallways that are 100 yards long, intersected with other 100 yard hallways. They are marble-walled/floored with high-ceilings, with seemingly endless interconnected courtrooms, inmate holding cells, offices, lots of service hallways/stairwells, open elevators, etc. Typical 1960's government building construction.

    Our Command Staff refused to allow us any long-guns for the above responsibilities. We had a couple of old AR-15's with A2 iron sights and a few 870's with bead front sights locked in a safe that only range staff had access to. (4 people.) Not even range staff, regardless of previous experience, were allowed to have them out of the safe on duty. So no long guns for anyone.

    Our range staff worked for a couple of years to get an AR-based long-gun program approved, even with personally-owned guns modified to suit the restrictive political environment. Was told after several attempts to stop or I would be removed from the Range program. (Which I was 3 weeks before I retired because I sent one last proposal up the chain...)

    I had one supportive Lieutenant who fought with us to get us the right equipment and training, and with his support I was able to get the RDS approved on personal handguns as a stop-gap means of providing some type of weapons system that would allow effective engagement past 50 yards. It really did nothing to address body armor or the over-all skill/attitude of most of our personnel, but it was something more than we had.

    And since the cost of set-up was out-of-pocket, we were fairly confident only the most dedicated shooters would get the RDS set up on their guns. As it was, when I left in April of 2017 I was the only one carrying it on duty/EDC and had been for just over a year. One other Lieutenant was in the process of setting up a duty gun but he was going to do it on a Glock MOS. Against my recommendation, but, wait for it, I was overridden. (I still have hoof marks on my back from all those times...)

    Anyway, I ran a Glock 23 Gen4 with RM06, S.I. suppressor sights, S.I. F/S trigger and TLR-1 for daily duty/off-duty/EDC. And a Glock 22 Gen4 set up exactly the same for uniform work like warrant services/special assignments. The F/S trigger was almost an issue, but after explanation of it "just being a trigger shoe on an otherwise OEM trigger bar with no loss/modification to the factory safeties," it was approved. (Since converted the 23 to a 19 with all of the above and an APLc after retirement, and my S.I. V3-417 complete upper should be arriving tomorrow to convert the 22.)

    SO... Long, cathartic story and since I left I don't think anyone is actually running one on duty. Not sure if the policy is even still in place. But we did have them.
    Last edited by OmegaDS; 10-13-2017 at 05:38 PM. Reason: Grammar
    VIRES HONOR VIRTUS FIDES

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Southeast Florida
    Posts
    1,536
    Wow, OmegaDS--that's quite a saga. It's unfortunate that it's such a struggle, but not surprising.

    I suppose at some point somebody will save the day with a precise shot using a red dot and the lightbulb will suddenly go on institutionally, but until then it will be an uphill battle and the smaller the agency, the better the chances of educating the decision makers.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Kally-four-nee-ya
    Posts
    141
    It was really frustrating. They made it clear we were to be a "pistol only" agency, yet they wanted an Active Shooter response plan for a building with numerous 75 to 100 yard areas of likely engagement over multiple floors. And then we we did present outlines for an Active Shooter training that met their requirements, we were told "not now, maybe next training cycle."

    What happens in most agencies/departments is "certain people with certain experiences and training" bring up the types of incidents that are happening more and more often and how it's not "if" but "when" they actually happen in our house. But then every time "something" does happen but doesn't rise to or become one of "those" incidents, the Brass pat themselves on the back and congratulate themselves on being the best at what they do (just ask them), and use it as another example of those certain people being "paranoid, overly aggressive, always focused on the worst-case scenario, etc.".

    Too often the Brass (pretty much all the time) confuse luck with readiness, blind fortune with actual ability. And then when reality shows up and bites them on the neck, they go back and blame everything and everyone other than themselves.

    There is a lot I miss about the job after 23 years at 3 different Agencies. But there is a LOT I give thanks for not having to deal with ever again.
    VIRES HONOR VIRTUS FIDES

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Posts
    238
    I just heard that there are two local agencies that have approved RDS on handguns (The Glock MOS for sure) and there are at least three others that are evaluating the concept.

    I have a G34 that is Suarez-modified for an RMR. The first project of 2018 is to get an appropriate RDS and become more familiar.
    "We should always try to do the right thing and the moral thing and the legal thing, but first we should do the SMART thing."
    --John S. Farnam
    Defense Training International

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Chattanooga TN
    Posts
    5,886
    Clark County Indiana uses them.
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor
    NRA Certified Instructor
    Tennessee State Handgun Carry Permit Instructor
    Glock Factory Certified Armorer
    IDPA Master Class SSP, ESP,CDP, CCP, BUG
    Gung Ho Chuan Association

    TRAIN with me....https://suarezinternational.com/sear...h_query=harris

    Fundamentalist Christian Man at Arms

    AKA - CRUEL HAND LUKE

    Joel 3:10 - Beat your plowshares into swords , and your pruning hooks into spears; train even your weaklings to be warriors.

    Through HIS power I can walk on water..IF I just have the faith and courage to get out of the boat.

    A good man who's done a couple of bad things along the way....

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    9,396
    Quote Originally Posted by OmegaDS View Post
    It was really frustrating. They made it clear we were to be a "pistol only" agency, yet they wanted an Active Shooter response plan for a building with numerous 75 to 100 yard areas of likely engagement over multiple floors. And then we we did present outlines for an Active Shooter training that met their requirements, we were told "not now, maybe next training cycle."

    What happens in most agencies/departments is "certain people with certain experiences and training" bring up the types of incidents that are happening more and more often and how it's not "if" but "when" they actually happen in our house. But then every time "something" does happen but doesn't rise to or become one of "those" incidents, the Brass pat themselves on the back and congratulate themselves on being the best at what they do (just ask them), and use it as another example of those certain people being "paranoid, overly aggressive, always focused on the worst-case scenario, etc.".

    Too often the Brass (pretty much all the time) confuse luck with readiness, blind fortune with actual ability. And then when reality shows up and bites them on the neck, they go back and blame everything and everyone other than themselves.

    There is a lot I miss about the job after 23 years at 3 different Agencies. But there is a LOT I give thanks for not having to deal with ever again.
    Fortuitous outcomes reinforcing bad tactics...... Gotta love agency politics
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
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  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    188
    Our Sheriff carries one, is evaluating it for department adoption. He likes it.
    But then, hes a former Tac team leader, still qualifies everyone with rifle, shotgun and pistol.

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