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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2016
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    396

    Default To Be Involved or Not: The Value of Minding Your Own Business

    On Warrior Talk there has been discussion as of late regarding getting involved in what may be described as an observed, on-going deadly force/critical force incident. The following is my opinion, my opinion only - and really doesn't matter, but it is the opinion of a long-time, street-wise police supervisor.

    To Be Involved or Not?

    In prior posts Warrior Talk members asked what may happen if they observe a crime in-progress and take lethal force/displayed lethal force action. My experience has taught me to mind my own business unless I'm getting paid to mind other's business. For the non-law enforcement officer, or off-duty officer, I'd like you to ask yourself the following questions:

    1. Do I know with a certainty what I'm seeing?
    2. Is what I'm seeing directly influence the safety of me or those for whom I'm responsible?
    3. Am I prepared to act in a way to mitigate the perceived threat, and would my actions be what a "reasonable person" would do?
    4. Is what I observe in front of me really what I think is happening, or could I be mistaken?
    5. Would a "reasonable person" have the same perception and feel action was necessary?
    6. Do I have a duty to get involved? Not a need or desire, but a duty....
    7. Would arriving first responders view me as a threat?
    8. How would I let first responders know who I am, my intentions and/or my duty to act?
    9. If I am injured or killed would my agency back my actions?
    10. If I am injured or killed would my family understand my actions?
    11. If I am injured or killed is it worth the pain and situation my injury or death places upon my family?
    12. Do I have the necessary skill to act?
    13. Do I have the necessary equipment with me right now to act?
    14. Do I really need to get involved?


    If you can answer the above questions and when you sit down with your family they tell you your absence from their lives is justifiable by the situation you are about to get it, then by all means get involved.

    As for me, I've learned to mind my own business...for the most part.

    Addition:

    I've been the first on-scene during a critical incident involving an active shooter. Between what Communications Division is telling me on my radio, what the Squad is telling me on the car-to-car radios, what bystanders are telling me as I pull up, and what I think I see - it can be confusing. If you're not in uniform, have a weapon and are acting as a hostile - I'll perceive you as a hostile and kill you. Right, wrong, it's the way it is. It is very hard to come out the hero. And one final thing - police are going to do anything they need to in order to ensure they're own are going home to their families. If that means accidentally killing the wanna-help-good-guy civilian then he's collateral damage we can live with.



    - J
    Last edited by JonathanNobody; 09-12-2017 at 04:54 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    396
    ....and if you just have to get in the fight, for whatever reason, then we need to talk about ways to get inbound LEOs to not kill you. Yes, there are ways to do this too.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    836
    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanNobody View Post
    ....and if you just have to get in the fight, for whatever reason, then we need to talk about ways to get inbound LEOs to not kill you. Yes, there are ways to do this too.
    Like this?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2016
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    396
    If you feel you must get involved then yes, like that.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
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    44,282
    If there is any doubt, there is no doubt. Either way...in or out. Otherwise...I'm not playing.

    If it involves me or mine...the bad guys have made a terminal choice....period.

    If it is a terrorist or active shooter...being who I am...I could not live with myself if I know I could have stopped him, yet chose to run away.

    I know I can kill the bad guy and I am fairly certain I can avoid getting shot by the good guys...having had them point guns at me plenty of times in the old life.

    These are the things not learned in Spandex Bulletgolf...among others.
    Gabe Suarez

    We cut our enemy's throats with Occam's Razor

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    5,254
    While Jonathan's list is comprehensive and correct, it's not something that needs to be addressed onscene. Doing so is begging for paralysis by analysis. The vast majority of the issues can be examined tonight or tomorrow, deficiencies can be addressed and the willing man can boil analysis down to an instant and a single question: "Do I need to act?"

    As I said several years ago when this came up: Get yourself right with God and everything else will flow.
    __________

    "To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    The Republic of Pirates
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    44,282
    There is a grey area of course. The two extremes...Captain America that saves the coke whore from a beating by her pimp and gets shot by the pimp's bodyguard (no...not everyone is worthy of your concern...cold as that may sound)...and then you have the guys who leave their testicles at home right next to Mas Ayoob's photo by their bed.

    "Do I need to act?" is a good start...but oddly self serving in its totality. And since reading is no longer fundamental, it will likely be misunderstood by the Youtube generation. Unless you yourself were about to be killed you would not "need to act". As need is described, if a thug grabbed your daughter's breast, you would not need to act. As need is described, seeing Adam lanza about to smoke an entire Kidergarten class...or Malik and farooq jihading a Christmas party you were not invited to...would not require it.

    So I suggest instead "Should I Act?". This encompasses events not involving you, but as I have said - that shock the conscience of humanity - that cutting the actions of the bad guy short on the spot would change history as well as insure your place in it. Events where not acting would conflict with your self image as a man...as a warrior. There are more important things in life than merely being "safe".
    Gabe Suarez

    We cut our enemy's throats with Occam's Razor

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    The Once Free State
    Posts
    12,090
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    .... shock the conscience of humanity....
    Yep, That's it. That's all the hours of training and all the hours on the range and all the hours in law books and court rooms--does what you see amount to something that Shocks the Sensibilities . Beyond that there are a lot of questions that need to be answered in a heartbeat and be dealt with afterwards both on the scene and later mayhaps in court.

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