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  1. #51
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Illinois
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    290
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    Go re-watch the above video, do you see the muzzle doing anything differently with the pump that the auto? Nope because the action is worked while managing recoil and coming back on target. As I said answering another comment on the competitive shooting, it's a software problem that people try to solve with a hardware solution. I believe the reason (though it may be sub conscious) that competitors go with semi vs. pump is because with the learning curve you get faster with less practice on a semi than you can with a pump. It's just easier/faster to get good at.
    I don't need to watch the video again. It was science. You were shooting two different actions at the same targets, in the same way. There is no argument from me. I was asking the question the same way some ask questions in a class. I was asking the question for those that did not, but may not have understood your explanation from just watching the video. There are some that read this forum that have not yet taken a class, or watched a complete Suarez instructional video. They are the ones that possibly need the verbiage to explain what you are demonstrating. Perhaps, I'm wrong.
    And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

    Steven Spaugh

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    290
    And furthermore, I completely understand the difference between shooting clays, and combat shooting. I have taught both. I never intended to imply that they were the same. Maybe I should watch the video again, to see the shooting targets.
    And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

    Steven Spaugh

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    9,085
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Spaugh View Post
    I don't need to watch the video again. It was science. You were shooting two different actions at the same targets, in the same way. There is no argument from me. I was asking the question the same way some ask questions in a class. I was asking the question for those that did not, but may not have understood your explanation from just watching the video. There are some that read this forum that have not yet taken a class, or watched a complete Suarez instructional video. They are the ones that possibly need the verbiage to explain what you are demonstrating. Perhaps, I'm wrong.
    That's why I try to break it down the way I do
    AKA: Fuzzy


    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    Warlord of the TWOTU

    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    935
    "Again here strength comes into play as well as not using the shotgun like a rifle. I think this is a toss up but I would say that without proper bracing you may run into the issue of the semi short stroking (think like limp wristing a 1911) but we haven't tested for this as yet."

    Some months back, an 878--a semiauto version of the 870-- was fitted with a Raptor and a 18+" barrel. It was fired by an experienced, strong shotgunner in the Stakeout manner. It repeatedly FTE'd. If braced against body or hip it functioned flawlessly. I think it was Coastalcop that reported similar results with one handed operation of Benellis. If you were able to straight arm the weapon results might be different, but that's harder to do with the Raptor grip. If the semi is stocked, there's always the underarm assault: clamp it tight between upper arm and torso.

    As an aside, there is the question of the care and feeding of the autoloader during the fight. There are some that will not allow you to top off the tube unless you hit a button that releases the carrier.
    That can be hard to do while maintaining a firing grip. There are some that won't let you top off if the action isn't cocked. And I'm sure there are other variations with which I am not yet familiar. But most pumps have no such issues: just keep shoving rounds into the tube.
    Another issue: the charging handle. I've had them fly off, or break. That's OK if the gun keeps running--you can often roll one into the tube and never have to touch the charging handle once the semi locks open--but not if you have a bolt-forward FUBAR. Mortaring or jamming a knife into the bolt handle slot are your alternatives--unless the broken stem of the handle is still in the bolt.

    No mistake, I have both. An 1100 and a 1301 are frontline home defense firearms here. But a bootleg Stakeout is also readily to hand. And I'm seriously considering whether the fullsized 870s aren't a wiser choice.
    Last edited by Papa; 09-13-2017 at 08:02 PM.
    OTOC

    Warrior for the working day.

    "One pistol is worth a thousand words."

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

  5. #55
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
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    44,269
    The frustration comes when people DO NOT read a word and yet wish to disagree. Its like a student that just doesnt want to listen and persist in doing it his way because he thinks he knows better than the guy whose class he is attending. After a while...the instructor stops giving a shit about that particular student and moves on to the ones that are there to listen.
    Gabe Suarez

    We cut our enemy's throats with Occam's Razor

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Spaugh View Post
    I guess I missed the part in the video where the targets were shooting back. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot, over?
    Just making the point that Greg and Gabe have made in the past and better than I can. Gun games and gun fights are far different.
    A man can be right all the time. In which case he can do so, all by himself.

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,908
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    The frustration comes when people DO NOT read a word and yet wish to disagree. Its like a student that just doesnt want to listen and persist in doing it his way because he thinks he knows better than the guy whose class he is attending. After a while...the instructor stops giving a shit about that particular student and moves on to the ones that are there to listen.
    I'd also suggest that there are some souls that can be "excessively literal". I've found that teenagers and college students excel at this...I'm sure I did too when I was that age.

    My interpretation of the video as originally posted, given the context of the distance and what was being demonstrated, was that both Semi's and Pump's can be effective at distances beyond the typical "room distance" profile that is typically applied to a shotgun. The video confirms my experience that at any distance where a bit of aiming is required, a competent pump driver will have cycled the action sufficiently to make a follow up shot at an interval that is indistinguishable from a semi.

    Sure, if you want to go "literal", a well tuned semi will dump a tube faster then a pump with the exception of the most capable pump driver.

    But alas a tube dump is not the context within which the video was posted and the discussion initiated.

    If humans didn't talk OR post past each other, I'd respectfully suggest we would find much more in common, much less to argue about, and we would be a more polite and well adjusted society.

    But alas, we let ego get in the way, we don't learn, and nobody wins.

    Sad, really.
    In order for the underprivileged and inept to feel adequate, the skilled and capable must be made stupid by decree.

    - Gabe Suarez, 12/13/2011

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