Page 8 of 8 FirstFirst ... 345678
Results 71 to 74 of 74
  1. #71
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
    Posts
    44,435
    Mine again

    Quote Originally Posted by mike135 View Post
    My point was that if everybody is limited to defined policies and procedures, there are going to be situations that were never anticipated--what do you do then?

    That is where a man's maturity and self-directed action will fit in. You point to policies and ROE, but you yourself are limited by the laws of where you live. And things must go pretty bad for you to willfully violate them. Same thing here. I violated plenty of ploicy in my time because the policy was stupid. And after my actions they were rewritten. The mission and objective are what they are...the mission and objective is not to "obey policy all the time no mater what". Did anyone suggest that?

    Are you going to sit back and let 40 more people die because your policies don't allow for you to do anything else, or are you going to recognize the extreme exigent circumstances and figure out what you can do that might have a chance of affecting the situation? Sometimes bad stuff happens and you have to choose the best of the undesirable options.

    I dunno...it depends. It really does. On many things. What the situation really is as opposed to what I would like it to be...is only one example. Often you don't quite know what you have at the outset. Policies were written so the dumb kids wouldn't make dumb mistakes. Same for laws I suppose. In a nutshell.

    We often talk about how important it is to keep your brain switched on and working throughout any situation--that's all I'm talking about. And the most tools I have at my disposal (such as a rifle with a magnified optic in this situation) the better.

    OK
    Gabe Suarez

    We cut our enemy's throats with Occam's Razor

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Southeast Florida
    Posts
    1,475
    I don't want to prolong this conversation, but just want to make a clarification. There are several different perspectives that are getting mixed up, and in my mind they need to be kept separate and defined or the conversation gets very muddy.

    1. The private individual who is just carrying concealed (or maybe has something more stashed somewhere just in case, but that doesn't really change the mission)

    2. The individual officer and the decisions he makes regarding his own actions

    3. The department policies and procedures, and the training that follows them

    So Gabe, much of what I was talking about earlier in this conversation focused on #3. None of it was about #1. And the recent element of the Las Vegas incident was focused on what #2 does in the context of #3.

    I know you focus here on #1 and #2, and I have no argument with anything said in that regard.

  3. #73
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
    Posts
    44,435
    Mine

    Quote Originally Posted by mike135 View Post
    I don't want to prolong this conversation, but just want to make a clarification. There are several different perspectives that are getting mixed up, and in my mind they need to be kept separate and defined or the conversation gets very muddy.

    1. The private individual who is just carrying concealed (or maybe has something more stashed somewhere just in case, but that doesn't really change the mission)

    His mission is, IF HE HAS SUFFICIENT AND ACTIONABLE INTELL...AND HE IS WITHIN TACTICAL REACH OF THE TERRORIST - to attack and kill the shooter. Period. His tactics will minimize his exposure to both the shooter and to responding LE. If he elects to handle this with anything other than his pistol he is a fool.

    2. The individual officer and the decisions he makes regarding his own actions

    His mission is to find, fix, and f...kill the terrorist. While on the way he must understand that many private citizens are as dumb as dirt and will get in the way physically, and even be uncooperative from fear and from a lack of understanding of what is actually happening. He cannot allow them to stop or slow his mission. As well...he must understand that there are at the same time likely Off Duty LE and CCW folk going after the shooter, as well as OTHER TERRORISTS that may want to go unchallenged and shoot him in the back.

    3. The department policies and procedures, and the training that follows them

    Sometimes yes...sometimes no.

    So Gabe, much of what I was talking about earlier in this conversation focused on #3. None of it was about #1. And the recent element of the Las Vegas incident was focused on what #2 does in the context of #3.

    I know you focus here on #1 and #2, and I have no argument with anything said in that regard.

    Understood.
    Gabe Suarez

    We cut our enemy's throats with Occam's Razor

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #74
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    399
    We do have a term for breaking rules and policies in dealing with the new and unknown - exigent circumstances. Most, if not all, agencies have a policy saying in exigent circumstancing, using the "totality of the circumstances" present to the LEO, should existing policies/procedures be ineffective or unreasonable, the LEO may just "fucking figure it out" and be backed by the agency - we'll call this intent under the color of law.

    Rules and policies are guidelines bendable to the exigent circumstances of the totality....and that gentlemen, is the gray area most of us play and excel within.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •