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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post

    As I've written before, when it comes to an event like this I'm going to observe the masses and do the opposite. if they're running one way I'll be headed in another. I don't want to get caught in a press of people that will compromise my ability to move or be pushed like cattle into a secondary killing field. I'll be looking for other options, like employee corridors, fire exits, or breaking a window.
    Very good point I have not thought much about before.
    Trump 2016...because f@&k you.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Phoenix, Arizona
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    9,323
    Fighting in structures starts to get more complicated the more you learn to think about them. It's a skill set you can learn in a weekend but the thinking, diagnosing, and proper response you'll spend the rest of your life working on. After one of my CQB events you'll never look at a building the same again.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    Fighting in structures starts to get more complicated the more you learn to think about them. It's a skill set you can learn in a weekend but the thinking, diagnosing, and proper response you'll spend the rest of your life working on. After one of my CQB events you'll never look at a building the same again.
    Looking forward to it.
    KRG-1: Kalashnikov Rifle Gunfighting
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    HRO-6/HRO-7: CQB-Fighting in Structures/Team Tactics, Urban Warfare Weekend

    TWOTU since 2016

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    126
    The scenario as presented is ok if you're ST6, the Unit, or 75RR on a snatch and grab. In an LEO scenario, it is totally unacceptable. First off is the mindset. You do not look upon everyone you see as an enemy. For example, in an active shooter situation there is absolutely no need to worry about an unarmed person, because an unarmed person is not an active shooter by definition, and no threat to you. If you are more worried about protecting yourself than helping the defenseless around you to safety, then you're in your job for all the wrong reasons. Maybe I'm just old school, but the talk of putting on their knees and cuffing an innocent citizen, perhaps treating them roughly if you have to employ a long gun, just riles me up a bit. It would also allow the active shooter the time to kill a few more people.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    431
    Quote Originally Posted by ronlassit View Post
    The scenario as presented is ok if you're ST6, the Unit, or 75RR on a snatch and grab. In an LEO scenario, it is totally unacceptable. First off is the mindset. You do not look upon everyone you see as an enemy. For example, in an active shooter situation there is absolutely no need to worry about an unarmed person, because an unarmed person is not an active shooter by definition, and no threat to you. If you are more worried about protecting yourself than helping the defenseless around you to safety, then you're in your job for all the wrong reasons. Maybe I'm just old school, but the talk of putting on their knees and cuffing an innocent citizen, perhaps treating them roughly if you have to employ a long gun, just riles me up a bit. It would also allow the active shooter the time to kill a few more people.
    Ronlassit,

    Are you a law enforcement officer and have you actually been in this situation before?

    As one who has, and as one who has had a friend's face get vaporized by a "friendly" may I say Greg is absolutely right.

    Don't let your old school ideas get you or someone else killed.
    Last edited by JonathanNobody; 09-14-2017 at 07:17 PM.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    1,058
    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanNobody View Post
    Ronlassit,

    Are you a law enforcement officer and have you actually been in this situation before?

    As one who has, and as one who has had a friend's face get vaporized by a "friendly" may I say Greg is absolutely right.

    Don't let your old school ideas get you or someone else killed.
    Just stay out of the building while we're rolling. We'll let you know when we're done.

    It's not about protecting ourselves. It's about staying alive so we can kill every active shooter In the house.
    Last edited by Papa; 09-14-2017 at 08:13 PM.
    OTOC

    Warrior for the working day.

    "One pistol is worth a thousand words."

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
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    9,323
    Quote Originally Posted by ronlassit View Post
    The scenario as presented is ok if you're ST6, the Unit, or 75RR on a snatch and grab your points of reference tell me that you likely haven't dealt with anything like the proposed scenario.. In an LEO scenario, it is totally unacceptable That's interesting, since this is exactly what I teach CT LEOs. First off is the mindset. You do not look upon everyone you see as an enemy until you have a mate or yourself shot in the back of the head by a sleeper/layoff man. For example, in an active shooter situation there is absolutely no need to worry about an unarmed person, because an unarmed person is not an active shooter by definition, and no threat to you so you know they're unarmed through clairvoyance? Trust but verify should be the motto, be in command of the scene or you are opening you and your mates to risk . If you are more worried about protecting yourself than helping the defenseless around you to safety, then you're in your job for all the wrong reasons oddly enough I heard the exact same argument from a young CT member in training and the end result was him being moved back to patrol. The answer is this, who will save the victims you speak about if you're shot because you didn't take appropriate measures to ensure your safety and that of your mates? How many more will die because you rushed in half assed and got shot vs. doing it right and safely. Maybe I'm just old school, but the talk of putting on their knees and cuffing an innocent citizen, perhaps treating them roughly if you have to employ a long gun, just riles me up a bit. It would also allow the active shooter the time to kill a few more people as I've said a few hundred times it's all context. People fleeing aren't a threat, people that aren't fleeing are potential threats and need to be handled, at the very least proned out and pat down for following officers to secure.
    see above comments. Again, the body count will go up regardless of rushing in or not, but will definitely go up more if you're shot early due to lack of good tactics
    .
    I hope this answers your questions. I understand your sentiment but it is not tactically sound, nor does it take into account today's threats. If we were talking about a medicated manic or other mentally disturbed person who is likely to off themselves at the first sign of resistance then I would agree that the rush in tactic would work. But that likelihood ended around 2001, the threat has evolved, if our tactics don't evolve with them good men in the service of others die.
    Last edited by Greg Nichols; 09-14-2017 at 08:29 PM.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    431
    I do hope everyone realizes SI training isn't theoretical in nature, but based on, and for, real life operations.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    9,323
    Context gang. At any point in this thread did I ever say that force should be used on a compliant person?
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Third Coast
    Posts
    3,894
    Quote Originally Posted by ronlassit View Post
    The scenario as presented is ok if you're ST6, the Unit, or 75RR on a snatch and grab. In an LEO scenario, it is totally unacceptable. First off is the mindset. You do not look upon everyone you see as an enemy. For example, in an active shooter situation there is absolutely no need to worry about an unarmed person, because an unarmed person is not an active shooter by definition, and no threat to you. If you are more worried about protecting yourself than helping the defenseless around you to safety, then you're in your job for all the wrong reasons. Maybe I'm just old school, but the talk of putting on their knees and cuffing an innocent citizen, perhaps treating them roughly if you have to employ a long gun, just riles me up a bit. It would also allow the active shooter the time to kill a few more people.
    When you hear shots you move direct to threat, but mindful of others in the area that might be waiting to kill you, and the angles on your approach. if shooting has happened but isnt happening upon your arrival you take a little more time to suss out the bad guy(s) , you excepted the job and the risks involved, BUT you play it smart to make a difference. And in that environment you absolutely MUST dominate the area you are in. Most people flip out during events like this and a dominant and directive approach helps sort them out and can usually take them out of "vapor lock" to compliance.
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

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