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  1. #1
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    Default CQB/ The Unknown Person

    Ok gang, one of the questions I’ve had from a number of LEOs and others on the forum is how do you handle an unknown person who hasn’t warranted gunfire yet, how to restrain them, what to do with your long gun, and things of that nature so let’s jump into it.

    If I’m searching a structure everyone inside is an enemy combatant until I have the time to prove they aren’t. If I encounter a person in the building and I’m unsure my initial command on entering a room is “DOWN, DOWN, DOWN” as I close the distance. The situation and their reaction will dictate my response, if they are clearly not supposed to be there and are noncompliant they will get a muzzle strike to the solar plexus or face and helped to the floor till I can secure my rifle. If they’re compliant and following command they will get subsequent string of command. I’d prefer them to be kneeling with their ankles crossed and their fingers laced behind their head, facing away from me. Once in this position I will back sling and go to pistol until I have a crush grip on their laced fingers, then I will holster.

    After cuffing or zip-tieing their hands behind their back I will conduct a cursory search for weapons or anything that can be used to unsecure themselves. I prefer them on their knees because it’s easier and faster to search and if you are working with contact/cover you can pitch the person away to keep yourself out of cover’s line of fire which is harder to do in the prone. Once the search is concluded I pull their shirt over their face and lay them face down to continue with the search or depending on the environment take them outside and lay them on their face with their face covered and start my clear over again. In general I will rather clear the structure entirely before I do more with the unknown especially if I’m solo.

    If it’s more than one unknown I want them gathered and facing away from me and the above steps are repeated.

    As a general rule of thumb, if I’m forced to approach with a long gun in hand the subject is going to get rough treatment to preclude any thought of resistance. Once they are compliant and proned-out I will back sling my rifle before doing anything more. It’s just easier to employ a sidearm at close range than it is a long gun.
    Last edited by Greg Nichols; 09-14-2017 at 08:31 PM.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
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  2. #2
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    Just reading and learning, but perhaps you could qualify your scenario a little better? Is this approach primarily for a LE or Mil situation where you expect to engage hostiles and you have no legality concerns about treating everybody as a combatant and restraining them?

    I'm imagining situations where you are a civilian hunting the bad guys but you don't really have the necessary equipment or legal right to actually restrain people and treat them in the way described.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike135 View Post
    Just reading and learning, but perhaps you could qualify your scenario a little better? Is this approach primarily for a LE or Mil situation where you expect to engage hostiles and you have no legality concerns about treating everybody as a combatant and restraining them?

    I'm imagining situations where you are a civilian hunting the bad guys but you don't really have the necessary equipment or legal right to actually restrain people and treat them in the way described.
    Yes I'm referring to it from am Mil/LEO standpoint.

    From a civilian stand point If they're in my house they are bought and paid for. In a public environment like a mall during an active shooter scenario if I encounter someone who isn't running from gunfire I'm putting them on the ground till I can ascertain their intent. My safety comes first above all, I won't really care if they don't like or want to get on the ground, they're still going down there.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    Yes I'm referring to it from am Mil/LEO standpoint.

    From a civilian stand point If they're in my house they are bought and paid for. In a public environment like a mall during an active shooter scenario if I encounter someone who isn't running from gunfire I'm putting them on the ground till I can ascertain their intent. My safety comes first above all, I won't really care if they don't like or want to get on the ground, they're still going down there.
    Yep that sounds right to me as well

    How would you respond NOT as a cop to (possibly) suspicious subjects in a mall shooting?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    Yep that sounds right to me as well

    How would you respond NOT as a cop to (possibly) suspicious subjects in a mall shooting?
    There have been instances of "lay off" attackers in terrorist actions. People that hold back and observe an attack so that they can ambush first responders. If I saw anyone not running from the sound of gunfire I'm going to have serious questions about their motives and while I may or may not point the gun at them I will give loud simple one word commands like "HANDS" or "DOWN". I don't want to lose control of them until I can verify that they aren't armed. Once I verify that I'm going to continue rolling, either out a side exit or to the sound of gunfire, it all depends on who I have with me.

    As I've written before, when it comes to an event like this I'm going to observe the masses and do the opposite. if they're running one way I'll be headed in another. I don't want to get caught in a press of people that will compromise my ability to move or be pushed like cattle into a secondary killing field. I'll be looking for other options, like employee corridors, fire exits, or breaking a window.
    Last edited by Greg Nichols; 08-10-2017 at 10:07 AM.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post

    As I've written before, when it comes to an event like this I'm going to observe the masses and do the opposite. if they're running one way I'll be headed in another. I don't want to get caught in a press of people that will compromise my ability to move or be pushed like cattle into a secondary killing field. I'll be looking for other options, like employee corridors, fire exits, or breaking a window.
    Very good point I have not thought much about before.
    “Every day the same thing...variety”

  7. #7
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    Fighting in structures starts to get more complicated the more you learn to think about them. It's a skill set you can learn in a weekend but the thinking, diagnosing, and proper response you'll spend the rest of your life working on. After one of my CQB events you'll never look at a building the same again.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  8. #8
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    The scenario as presented is ok if you're ST6, the Unit, or 75RR on a snatch and grab. In an LEO scenario, it is totally unacceptable. First off is the mindset. You do not look upon everyone you see as an enemy. For example, in an active shooter situation there is absolutely no need to worry about an unarmed person, because an unarmed person is not an active shooter by definition, and no threat to you. If you are more worried about protecting yourself than helping the defenseless around you to safety, then you're in your job for all the wrong reasons. Maybe I'm just old school, but the talk of putting on their knees and cuffing an innocent citizen, perhaps treating them roughly if you have to employ a long gun, just riles me up a bit. It would also allow the active shooter the time to kill a few more people.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ronlassit View Post
    The scenario as presented is ok if you're ST6, the Unit, or 75RR on a snatch and grab. In an LEO scenario, it is totally unacceptable. First off is the mindset. You do not look upon everyone you see as an enemy. For example, in an active shooter situation there is absolutely no need to worry about an unarmed person, because an unarmed person is not an active shooter by definition, and no threat to you. If you are more worried about protecting yourself than helping the defenseless around you to safety, then you're in your job for all the wrong reasons. Maybe I'm just old school, but the talk of putting on their knees and cuffing an innocent citizen, perhaps treating them roughly if you have to employ a long gun, just riles me up a bit. It would also allow the active shooter the time to kill a few more people.
    Ronlassit,

    Are you a law enforcement officer and have you actually been in this situation before?

    As one who has, and as one who has had a friend's face get vaporized by a "friendly" may I say Greg is absolutely right.

    Don't let your old school ideas get you or someone else killed.
    Last edited by JonathanNobody; 09-14-2017 at 07:17 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanNobody View Post
    Ronlassit,

    Are you a law enforcement officer and have you actually been in this situation before?

    As one who has, and as one who has had a friend's face get vaporized by a "friendly" may I say Greg is absolutely right.

    Don't let your old school ideas get you or someone else killed.
    Just stay out of the building while we're rolling. We'll let you know when we're done.

    It's not about protecting ourselves. It's about staying alive so we can kill every active shooter In the house.
    Last edited by Papa; 09-14-2017 at 08:13 PM.
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