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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter76 View Post
    It's not an excuse, it's practical reality... Can you honestly tell me that if you give the average gun owner a Steyer or a FHN SCAR and an unlimited budget for ammo that they would spend the range time needed to be able to take advantage of those platforms potential? That they would learn to be able to consistently hit targets at 300+ yards? What sense does it make for those people to spend 3 times as much as a WASR when their practical accuracy with either platform will be just as good/bad?

    I never said "a good enough kit was just as good as an expensive gun", I said that for those that don't put in the range time and will never be able to take advantage of a top quality rifles potential, a WASR will serve those people just as well as anything else. That is pretty much an inarguable fact, unless you're now arguing that range time doesn't really matter.

    And the lever action/Ruger revolver comment is just ridiculous... And you know it.
    I don't know man. I consider myself an average shooter. Just the other day I was making solid hits on a 12" gong at 200yrds with a 10.5" AR with a rds and can easily make hits at 300 yrds with my receipt with a 4x acog. Its really not hard, especially with good equipment


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    Abortion is sacrificing your child on the alter of convenience....Adrian Rogers
    Soli Deo Gloria

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    2,415
    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter76 View Post
    It's not an excuse, it's practical reality... Can you honestly tell me that if you give the average gun owner a Steyer or a FHN SCAR and an unlimited budget for ammo that they would spend the range time needed to be able to take advantage of those platforms potential? That they would learn to be able to consistently hit targets at 300+ yards? What sense does it make for those people to spend 3 times as much as a WASR when their practical accuracy with either platform will be just as good/bad?

    I never said "a good enough kit was just as good as an expensive gun", I said that for those that don't put in the range time and will never be able to take advantage of a top quality rifles potential, a WASR will serve those people just as well as anything else. That is pretty much an inarguable fact, unless you're now arguing that range time doesn't really matter.

    And the lever action/Ruger revolver comment is just ridiculous... And you know it.
    You can get a Colt 6920/6720 which will outshoot any AK (and have better iron sights) for $750-$850. Unless someone wants an AK, the notion of accepting 4MOA is ridiculous.


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  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    343
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Attachment 53083

    My current rifle.
    That looks great! And I'll have you know Gabe, I do keep a Ruger GP100 AND a .357 lever action at the ready...in my shower.


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    Sherman House
    Instructor - Tactical Response Inc.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    14,852
    When I made the OP the intention was to compare WASR 10 to other AKs that are available in USA and not to challenge the AR system.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  5. #35
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
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    44,739
    True...but in 2017, it is a rifle and it is impossible.to keep other rifles out of the discussion.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #36
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    14,852
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    True...but in 2017, it is a rifle and it is impossible.to keep other rifles out of the discussion.
    Understood and I have no problem with the comparison.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,159
    I think a comment I made in another thread bears repeating. The fact that a 'regular' shooter won't or can't spend the time or money to train does not mean excellent firearms are wasted on them.

    "But most of all I think that adding and using the RMR on my handgun has emphasized something that Gabe and WT generally has espoused for a long time, but I didn't fully comprehend:

    basic equipment + new shooter : shooter may not notice limitations of basic equipment because the capabilities of equipment still exceed capabilities of shooter.

    basic equipment + good shooter : shooter will experience limitations because their capabilities are >= capabilities of equipment, and without change in equipment, development of skills will plateau, regress, or be retarded.

    great equipment + new shooter : shooter's capabilities limit what they can do but their abilities will far exceed what they could do with basic equipment, and learning curve cut (case in point: my non-shooter mom with suarez RMR and brace hitting barrel at 100 yds)

    great equipment + good shooter: shooter will get 'over the hump' and avoid skill plateau, identifying weaknesses and correct them; shooting capabilities enhanced (case in point: everything I could do with irons on my G19 I did faster / better/ more precise with the RMR; it also exposed weaknesses that were hidden by basic equipment)."

    http://blog.suarezinternational.com/...in-accord.html

    Excellent equipment benefits EVERYONE.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    3,159
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    And 200 yards...that is what red dot pistols are for. Its 2017 afterall.
    OK, now that shot coffee out my nose...

    I have a Romanian AK that I paid $235.00 for during the 90's AW ban. Everything works on it. It is well made. It is a fantastic example of late 1940's technology designed to replace the Mosin Nagant rifle and PPSH-41 SMG. It did that very well, and still works better than a bolt action rifle or pistol caliber carbine in a fight from 0-300 meters. It is designed for mass production on limited tooling by unsophisticated workers to be issued to uneducated soldiers. They nailed it. The AK represents the beginning of the assault rifle concept but, lacking modularity, can't keep up with how it refined over the years.

    I doubt Stoner envisioned the "lego-like" mix and match modularity we now enjoy, but the AR system allowed capitalist market forces to take the ball and run with it. The modular bull pup is an evolution beyond the AR platform but lacks the mass market support of the AR. The AR is here to stay whereas the AK was an evolutionary dead end.

    ETA - The "average shooter" the AK was designed for was a conscript pointed at the enemy and told to achieve his governments objective. The Milspec M4 is a rifle issued to a volunteer for the same reason. The civilian AR allows the individual to build the exact rifle he needs to fulfill his own objectives. From both a marketing and operational standpoint the AR is the only rifle out there with that kind of flexibility. The bull pup manufacturers may offer various versions like the AUG which can be a 9mm smg or 5.56 LMG, but that variability comes from a single source. No other platform allows you to take a stripped lower and create exactly the right tool for the job.
    Last edited by Pict; 07-26-2017 at 04:55 AM.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Chattanooga TN
    Posts
    3,365
    As much as we might not like it or like to admit it , the rifle market in the US has flip flopped in the last 12 years. Back in 2005 mil spec parts ARs were more expensive than just about any AK short of a PolyTech Legend or a Steyr Maadi. The AK kits with barrels were still plentiful and you could get into a solid AK put together by an experienced builder for under $600. Or you could buy a WASR10 and send it to a gunsmith to get all its fit/finish/slanted sight base/wrong headspace issues fixed and come out about the same price . The AR you would get for that same $600 was an Olympic or a DPMS or some other equivalent piece of randomly reliable machinery.

    Now look at things 12 years down the road....the quality AKs available NOW are going to be in the $800+ price......about the same price you can get a Colt 6920/6721/6520 for if you hunt around a little. And due to better quality magazines/followers/springs/extractors that are available now (due to competition and profit motive to make a better rifle opened up with the assault weapon ban going away) the AR has largely closed the gap on reliability. And they have always been easier to add optics to. The big draw in 2005 for the AK was an arguably more reliable if not quite as accurate gun but at 1/2 the price...but now...not so much. Now the matching # kits for $150 are gone, the ones available have no barrels so you have to get a US made barrel, and they cost 3 times what they did back then. Add to that the price of the build and the 922R compliant parts and you are paying more for your kit built AK now than you are paying for a NIB Colt 6920..... How times have changed.

    As to the OP....some WASRs were fine as far as fit, finish, and sights....most were not. There is a reason that some builders were able to do quite well by offering "rebuilding " services on WASRs. But if yours works and you are happy with it then rock on.
    Last edited by Randy Harris; 07-27-2017 at 02:27 PM.
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor
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    TRAIN with me....https://suarezinternational.com/sear...h_query=harris

    Fundamentalist Christian Man at Arms

    AKA - CRUEL HAND LUKE

    Joel 3:10 - Beat your plowshares into swords , and your pruning hooks into spears; train even your weaklings to be warriors.

    Through HIS power I can walk on water..IF I just have the faith and courage to get out of the boat.

    A good man who's done a couple of bad things along the way....

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    3,144
    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter76 View Post
    To be fair, most people can't shoot MOA at 400 yds no matter how good the rifle.
    Why be fair?

    Most people *can* shoot MOA out to 400 yards with a bit of training and effort, and a rifle and round combination that is up to it. I wouldn't expect it of a Beretta CX4 storm with 115 grain white box for example, but a mid-priced AR with cheap 1-4 scope?

    The only question is how bad do they want it.

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