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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
    Posts
    43,833

    Default THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF VICTORY IN DEFENSE.

    Steinbeck wrote those words. THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF VICTORY IN DEFENSE.

    Hard to believe, but true. As the American Gun Society becomes more and more enmeshed in the morass of fear promoted by those instructors who have never known the exhilaration of personal battle, or had another man in the sights, and pressed off the shot, I bring you this...from an old friend who knows the real deal.

    Reaction of former Cleveland Irish-American gangster Danny Green - and an ex-Marine - in 1972 to being ambushed by a mob contract killer...

    1972 Danny Greene.jpg
    Gabe Suarez

    We cut our enemy's throats with Occam's Razor

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    6,866
    Winning defensively only works if the person quits, decides it isn't worth it, cops are coming. You can't rely your life and others on the presumption that someone is just willing to quit and walk away. To me that seems like losing tactics. Anything be it business or war there is always defense and offense. It's the ones that can transition well to both, and recognize when to do so.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    783
    "L'audace, L'audace! Tojours L'audace!"
    OTOC

    Warrior for the working day.

    "One pistol is worth a thousand words."

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,160
    "Kill The Irishman" is a must watch. Green was a bad ass!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Western Montana
    Posts
    3,025
    I can't remember who said it "The battle cannot be won by the shield alone". Kind of fits in here.
    Is God Politically Correct? If not should you be? - F. Huff -- God is unchanging in His love. He loves you. He has a plan for your life. Don't let the newspaper headlines frighten you. God is still sovereign; He's still on the throne. - B. Graham -- No statement should be believed because it is made by an authority. - Robert A. Heinlein

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    6,305
    That's why I don't like to use the words 'defense', 'defensive', and the like in writing when I don't have to. I prefer the term 'counter-offensive' nowadays. The 'defensive' meme is dangerous, the way it's worked its way into people's heads.
    Si vis pacem, para violentus.

    "Hard pressed on my right; my left is in retreat. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."--Marshall Foch

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    6,866
    Defense is ok, like I didn't see the guy coming, he swung at my face. In defense I bobbed my head back(defense) and countered him right in the temple. That would be defense with an offensive counter. Or, I heard a noise. I jumped out of bed went straight to my kids rooms to make sure they were ok(defense). Upon defending my children in there room I heard a creek in the floor in front of the door. I immediately walked to the door in high ready and proactively ambushed the bad gun in my hallway with 3 shots to his face.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    2,638
    'Defense', 'Defensive' is also a mindset that the 'Lion' does not use to win the day. Attack, Attack, Attack! That is how the fight is carried to the critter that intends us harm. Sometimes, it takes a moment to OODA and make the best/fastest selection to reorient and make aggression king.
    "When one goes willingly into the darkness, all he will find there, is what he brought in with him".

    --Gabe Suarez, after the 7-11 shootout

    Proper development of the 'Warrior Spirit', training and physical conditioning before 'The Event' cannot be overstated.

    U.S. Army Rangers (1/75 'Old Scroll')
    CRG; 0-5 Feet CRG; PSP Pistol; FOF Instructor School; Combat Pistol Instructor School

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    currently Germany
    Posts
    724
    I am divided on this, there have been cases of Victory in Defence in some of the historic sieges (Malta, Leningrad, Gibraltar) however I must concede that most sieges end in defeat for the besieged. There is also some danger in focussing on an active offence that may lead to recklessness. I like the word Repulse (in it's original connotation) or Repel, as in repulsed an attack or repel boarders.

    The SI method does emphasise that it is more important to Not Get Shot in a gunfight which is an aspect of defence, albeit this is one side of the coin which then entails a dynamic counter attack. For a gunfight on the "street" I agree a counter attack is likely to be most effective, I recall our old anti-ambush drills which were to turn into the ambush and assault through however in the context of a static location, home or place of work, the repulse/repel tactic is more likely to be effective unless we have to save family members. Take a position of advantage and shoot any aggressor that breaches in the face.
    ...If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
    To serve your turn long after they are gone,
    And so hold on when there is nothing in you
    Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"...
    If - Rudyard Kipling

    ECRG, June 2006
    Warrior Skills Camp, July 2009

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    8,779
    Quote Originally Posted by 3corners View Post
    I am divided on this, there have been cases of Victory in Defence in some of the historic sieges (Malta, Leningrad, Gibraltar) however I must concede that most sieges end in defeat for the besieged. There is also some danger in focussing on an active offence that may lead to recklessness. I like the word Repulse (in it's original connotation) or Repel, as in repulsed an attack or repel boarders.

    The SI method does emphasise that it is more important to Not Get Shot in a gunfight which is an aspect of defence, albeit this is one side of the coin which then entails a dynamic counter attack. For a gunfight on the "street" I agree a counter attack is likely to be most effective, I recall our old anti-ambush drills which were to turn into the ambush and assault through however in the context of a static location, home or place of work, the repulse/repel tactic is more likely to be effective unless we have to save family members. Take a position of advantage and shoot any aggressor that breaches in the face.
    Defensive battles are wars of attrition by their nature. If you have the supplies and all the time in the world you can win by your adversary quitting, I don't count that as a win as much as I'd count it as a draw.
    AKA: Fuzzy


    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    Warlord of the TWOTU

    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

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