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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BJJ223 View Post
    I love the phrase used in the article - "Get your mind right".

    I have never shot anyone. But, I think after 55 years on this planet, I know myself. On an active shooter, I could put a bullet in his head in a heartbeat with no warning and go eat a meal afterwords. Then, sleep like a baby. I do not believe in post traumatic stress syndrome. It is a self fulfilling prophesy.

    I punch and kick people almost every day. I have choked people out and broken peoples arms. I have shot more animals than is possible for me to count.

    I don't have emotional sadness over shooting bambi. Some scumbag killing innocents will be no different. Once they decide to attack, they don't deserve to live. They had a choice. They chose suicide. That is how I believe I have gotten my mind right.
    he hardest thing - containing your laughter so it does not affect your trigger press.
    T
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #22
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    Mar 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    The hardest thing - containing your laughter so it does not affect your trigger press.
    So true!

    Perhaps we should add another module to the CRG classes.

    Might need Nichols help to supply comedic motivation.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

  3. #23
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    Jun 2007
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    Washington State
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    Default THE IDIOCY OF YELLING A WARNING

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    So true!

    Perhaps we should add another module to the CRG classes.

    Might need Nichols help to supply comedic motivation.
    Smile Control?

    Smile Management??

    The Smiling Hyena shooting technique.
    Last edited by Ted Demosthenes; 06-15-2017 at 03:34 PM.
    Ted Demosthenes
    Suarez International Staff Instructor

    From Murphy: "If it looks stupid and it works, it ain't stupid"


  4. #24
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    May 2011
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    SW Florida
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    Training or lack thereof...

    At an instructor course last year, students were put into an active shooter scenario where they had to make their way down a hallway to a classroom where the contact was to be made. Lots of screaming and gunfire emanating from the room and as you approached the door, you got a visual on a suspect wearing a simunition suit and mask pointing a sims gun at someone else in the room. It unfolded fast but looking back at it, you had several options...

    1. You could take the shot without announcing from the hall way before entering the room.

    2. You could announce/ challenge from the hallway.

    3. You could enter the room in a dynamic fashion, assess the threats and respond as needed.

    I fired from the hallway. Turns out, the subject I shot was the "police officer" who had just shot the Active Shooter. The scenario was staged to create the dilemma. Challenge and give up the element of surprise or challenge and get critical info clarification on who the bad guy is. It was Blue on Blue with my name all over it. It sucked. In the context of that scenario and according to the instructors, the "better" response was to challenge. The "proof" was the end result.

    A different set of circumstances than the VA shooting, but a reflection of training, nonetheless. If cops are being trained to challenge and that training is reinforced with scenarios to drive home the idea that the default is to challenge, the majority of them are going to be hard pressed to jump off the rails when they need to get aggressive in such a small window. The default continues to be to wait, get more info, get confirmation, wait some more in case you are wrong, then maybe.... act.
    Fletch Fuller
    Suarez International Staff Instructor

    “Train Like Others Won't, So You Can Do Those Things That Others Can't.”

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  5. #25
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    Oct 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch Fuller View Post
    Training or lack thereof...

    At an instructor course last year, students were put into an active shooter scenario where they had to make their way down a hallway to a classroom where the contact was to be made. Lots of screaming and gunfire emanating from the room and as you approached the door, you got a visual on a suspect wearing a simunition suit and mask pointing a sims gun at someone else in the room. It unfolded fast but looking back at it, you had several options...

    1. You could take the shot without announcing from the hall way before entering the room.

    2. You could announce/ challenge from the hallway.

    3. You could enter the room in a dynamic fashion, assess the threats and respond as needed.

    I fired from the hallway. Turns out, the subject I shot was the "police officer" who had just shot the Active Shooter. The scenario was staged to create the dilemma. Challenge and give up the element of surprise or challenge and get critical info clarification on who the bad guy is. It was Blue on Blue with my name all over it. It sucked. In the context of that scenario and according to the instructors, the "better" response was to challenge. The "proof" was the end result.

    A different set of circumstances than the VA shooting, but a reflection of training, nonetheless. If cops are being trained to challenge and that training is reinforced with scenarios to drive home the idea that the default is to challenge, the majority of them are going to be hard pressed to jump off the rails when they need to get aggressive in such a small window. The default continues to be to wait, get more info, get confirmation, wait some more in case you are wrong, then maybe.... act.
    Maybe you wouldn't have shot him if he had been out of the fatal funnel like he should have been as a trained officer.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch Fuller View Post
    Training or lack thereof...

    At an instructor course last year, students were put into an active shooter scenario where they had to make their way down a hallway to a classroom where the contact was to be made. Lots of screaming and gunfire emanating from the room and as you approached the door, you got a visual on a suspect wearing a simunition suit and mask pointing a sims gun at someone else in the room. It unfolded fast but looking back at it, you had several options...

    1. You could take the shot without announcing from the hall way before entering the room.

    2. You could announce/ challenge from the hallway.

    3. You could enter the room in a dynamic fashion, assess the threats and respond as needed.

    I fired from the hallway. Turns out, the subject I shot was the "police officer" who had just shot the Active Shooter. The scenario was staged to create the dilemma. Challenge and give up the element of surprise or challenge and get critical info clarification on who the bad guy is. It was Blue on Blue with my name all over it. It sucked. In the context of that scenario and according to the instructors, the "better" response was to challenge. The "proof" was the end result.

    A different set of circumstances than the VA shooting, but a reflection of training, nonetheless. If cops are being trained to challenge and that training is reinforced with scenarios to drive home the idea that the default is to challenge, the majority of them are going to be hard pressed to jump off the rails when they need to get aggressive in such a small window. The default continues to be to wait, get more info, get confirmation, wait some more in case you are wrong, then maybe.... act.
    Bro, I think THAT scenario was set up for THAT result. Yes those things can/do happen to cops, and as a cop in THAT case announcing was probably right. OTOH the incident at the baseball field was not a typical cop incident. It was a BODY GUARD/PSD situation and one where the threat was active. I'm not sure if the shooting had already started, if he was reloading, OR if they spotted him with the weapon before he shot, my guess is one of the first two; but even if they yelled to him before he shot, it was a mistake. PSD assignments are NOT typical cop jobs, nor are they best performed with a cop mindset.

    Whether the officers reason for shouting "drop the gun" was police training or to draw attention from her protectee onto herself, the fact remains she stayed in the fight. As to the effectiveness of her PSD performance, we can talk about that later (and I think we should).

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    Bro, I think THAT scenario was set up for THAT result. Yes those things can/do happen to cops, and as a cop in THAT case announcing was probably right. OTOH the incident at the baseball field was not a typical cop incident. It was a BODY GUARD/PSD situation and one where the threat was active. I'm not sure if the shooting had already started, if he was reloading, OR if they spotted him with the weapon before he shot, my guess is one of the first two; but even if they yelled to him before he shot, it was a mistake. PSD assignments are NOT typical cop jobs, nor are they best performed with a cop mindset.

    Whether the officers reason for shouting "drop the gun" was police training or to draw attention from her protectee onto herself, the fact remains she stayed in the fight. As to the effectiveness of her PSD performance, we can talk about that later (and I think we should).
    Agreed.

    The default challenge is born in training and instructors chasing worst case liability scenarios. Unfortunately, it hamstrings officers who don't train or look past the lesson.
    Fletch Fuller
    Suarez International Staff Instructor

    “Train Like Others Won't, So You Can Do Those Things That Others Can't.”

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #28
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    You can set up any training scenario to prove what you wish. All training is not real in that sense. For example:

    Goal: Convince students that they need a 1911 45 ACP and to always use sights from Weaver
    Training Modality: Set the Pepper Poppers to only fall to 45 ACP and put them out past ten yards.

    Done.

    Goal: Convince officers that they MUST yell and challenge before shooting
    Training Modality: Create ambiguity of adversary identity and place a good guy in the exact same position the bad guy will be.

    Done.

    The ONLY PLACE ON EARTH where the white guy in his 50s in the 3 piece suit will be the bad guy is in the shoothouse of the Internal Affairs School Of tactics whose goal is to make officers (and by extension the civilians they teach) to be so circumspect about using force that they risk their lives and maybe even die from indecision before they ever even come close to making a mistake.

    In Fletch's scenario, in that very event, although tragic, it would still be justified based on what he saw at that exact moment. But rather than forcing people into a DECISION RIGHT NOW - my preference is hold and watch until I have enough. That is the difference between a reactionary officer and a hunter. A reactionary officer (and I saw plenty of that attitude when we trained the CT group a couple of years ago) forces himself to do something right now...and by forcing the decision he either risks making the wrong one, or risks himself unnecessarily. Killing the bad guy AS he kills you so that his next victim Joe F*ckhead can go home and jerk off to internet porn is not my idea of a win.

    Instead...hold an watch...listen. If Joe F*ckhead is shot by the gunman, then I have more information now. If the gunman is yelling for Joe to drop the weapon and identifies himself as a police officer (Drop the Gun - Sheriff or something), then I have information. If the gunman is yelling "Alahu Akbar", I also have information.

    Hunters hunt...so be the hunter, not the fool whose training and fear aggression cause a tumultuos emotional response.

    When I went after the Active Shooter on the beach (back then the phrase had not even been conceived), I listened and watched. I identified him based on his actions, and the actions of others. Then, I did not run up and yell like captain America...I stalked like a hunter and got into the distance interval and positioning I wanted.

    Hunters hunt...so be the hunter,and if the silly training session or scenario requires you to do it a certain way to pass. Then smile and wave, never showing your true face until the day of battle.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #29
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    May 2006
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    NWFL
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    Many years ago in NYC there was supposed some sort of special NYPD stake out squad for liquor stores and small convenience stores. The story I was told that when the preps were starting to commit the armed robbery the LEOs from concealment would order the crooks to raise their hands and drop their weapons. The demand was almost followed immediately if not simultaneously by gunshots from the concealed LEOs with the claim that the armed perpetrators looked and probably turned towards the direction of LEOs. IIRC a large number of armed robbers were shot dead and no LEOs were killed but some were wounded and the warning was given as required.

    SOU Background
    NYPD’s SOU was formed in response to an out-of-control crime wave in the late 1960’s. Victims were mom-and-pop candy and grocery stores, motels, hotels and Western Union offices doing cash transfers. The SOU methodology was simple. Review those businesses that had been robbed multiple times, survey the location to see if there was a good position in the business in which to hide (or build one), check possible angles of fire so as not to endanger any innocents, assign two or three SOU officers armed with handguns, shotguns and rifles, and wait for a robbery to occur. Most times, they did not have to wait long and often had to shoot, because many robbers chose not to surrender. A few officers were wounded, but none were killed. The resisting armed robbers were not so lucky.
    During the numerous conversations Jim and I had over the years, he told me he took part in about 20 encounters. The exact number of offenders killed or wounded is not known. Bill Allard, one of Jim’s regular partners, pointed out that, “We weren’t keeping a lot of records in those days of everything that was going on. Today you’d have to do that.” Another of his partners, Al Syage, followed up, saying “We didn’t keep score; we didn’t keep records; we didn’t even keep a number of the felons who were put on a slab in the morgue.” Jim is officially credited with having killed 11 robbers in such stakeouts, but he suggested to me that the number was higher. http://www.tactical-life.com/combat-...takeout-squad/
    Last edited by barnetmill; 06-17-2017 at 05:53 PM. Reason: typo
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  10. #30
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    Oct 2016
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    186
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post

    When I went after the Active Shooter on the beach (back then the phrase had not even been conceived), I listened and watched. I identified him based on his actions, and the actions of others. Then, I did not run up and yell like captain America...I stalked like a hunter and got into the distance interval and positioning I wanted.

    Hunters hunt...so be the hunter,and if the silly training session or scenario requires you to do it a certain way to pass. Then smile and wave, never showing your true face until the day of battle.
    I think this is a great observation and why I think it is so important for warriors to actually HUNT. It is hard to be like a hunter, if you don't hunt. My thousands of hours of coyote hunting has taught me more about killing than all the gun school classes I have been to.

    I have learned to recon an area, sneak in unobserved, hide in cover, be still, be aware, recognize when to take the shot, and make the shot count.

    It is an experiential thing. You really have to do it to fully understand it.

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