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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    171
    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    Guys I'm NOT opposed to 22s, I like 22s for initial teaching and just fun plinking for new shooters and experienced ones too; but they don't need to be clones-in fact maybe they shouldn't be clones. I like quality adult size quality 22s and I see the merit of 22s for specialized work. What I'm not convinced about is a clone for training. Back in the "battle rifle days" when we fought wars with 30 caliber rifles, there was room in my mind for sub caliber units, so troops could stay fresh with their G3's using a 22LR "insert", in the gutted building converted into a range next to their barracks. A modern version might be a 22LR upper "kit" for an "issued" M4 (etc). That works in my mind, but a full separate "clone" eludes me.

    The "range next door" works just as well for someone with an M4 as it does for someone with a G3. Add a cheap .22 suppressor to the mix and you can turn just about any place it's legal to shoot into a range, without having to deal with complaining neighbors or busybodies giving you grief or complaining to the police, the county government, etc.

    With an AR, that .22 upper can be a full separate clone for just another $130 or so. Why not do it? It's a lower fully compatible with 5.56mm uppers, so it can always be swapped onto a "serious" upper if needed.

    Putting together a .22 LR upper can be done at a reasonable price. CMMG makes decent bolts and barrels --- a 4.5" barrel, bolt and collar can be had for $260 and will keep cheap bulk-pack .22 LR subsonic so quieter through a suppressor, or a 16" version for $280 if you don't want to deal with the SBR issue --- drop that into a $40 Anderson upper receiver and add the small usual bits to complete to your tastes.

    The only non-standard parts involved are the half-length ejection port cover and block --- same as used on 9mm uppers and only a couple of dollars more than a standard 5.56mm cover --- and the "solid" charging handle that supposedly prevents jams due to casings being wedged between the top of the bolt group and the charging handle. The "solid" one is plastic, and while I haven't had any issues with mine, I can't help but think that sooner or later I'm going to smack myself in the face with the rear half of it. A standard CH will work, and with 7075 ones all over the place at $15 it would be a quick simple DIY upgrade to just fill the underside of the CH with epoxy or JB Weld.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    ME
    Posts
    69
    .22s are nice, but usually a compromise in regards to training. A lot of .22 kit for pistols don't function just like their standard calibers do... such as not locking back the slide. I used to have a Ciener kit for my Beretta, but sold it. Looked into a kit for my P228... but didn't like feedback I heard about them. Best kit, hands down, is the CZ Kadet kit. Accuracy and function are top notch, just have to deal with a smaller "slide" to grasp on. Prefer just training on 9mm... .22 is for plinking/pests.

    I have a Spikes .22 upper for my AR. Pulled out the bolt group, and swapped in a CMMG one that does all the AR stuff... forward assist is helpful with .22 at times. I also have their BHOA, which I modified to work as a manual bolt release. I use BDM magazines that hold the bolt back, then the bolt release to hold it back while the magazine is out. Not 100% to how an AR works, but is a viable system.

    I also have a GSG-5, which would be pretty close to an MP5 trainer. The bolt hold is good mainly considering it is a rimfire.

    .22 long guns are fun toys, but I really prefer training with standard calibers. Plinking and pest control is where I see them at.

  3. #23
    I live in the country and do a fair amount of plinking/rabbit hunting with my sons. I have a Ruger 10/22 - M-1 Carbine clone built from the kit by E.A. Brown. It has the Tech Sight's TSR200 on it. This sight mimics the sight picture on my dept issued DRMO M-16A1 , I think it does help with snapping in, sight picture, breathing, trigger control -etc. It cannot replicate the ambience of the M-16 as far as recoil, manipulations, drills and so on.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Posts
    296
    22 conversion units

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is a topic near and dear to my heart. I started shooting.22 conversion units about 35 years ago, when I was a poor student. About thesame time Jerry Usher had an article in (I think) the American Handgunner Annual advocating the use of what he called"understudy" guns for economical practice.

    During my military service I used an M-16 (three differentmodels, actually) and carried (in order) an S&W 15 revolver, an M1911A1 andthen an M9. I have personal examples of all of those guns.

    Over the years I acquired a S&W 18 (.22 cal combatmasterpiece), a Colt Ace (.22 on the O frame) and a Ciener and then later aBeretta “practice kit” for the M9. And an Atchisson and then a Colt conversionunit for the AR-15. In recent years I bought a S&W M&P 15-22 rifle(which works really well)

    (I also have a S&W 650 in .22 to go with my S&W 60HB 3 inch, an argentine .22 conversion unit for my Browning P35, a Sigconversion unit I bought in 2008 for my 9mm 226 & 226-DAK in .40 cal, and aWalther PPK/S in .22 that I use as a practice gun for my Walther PPK & Sig230. I also have a S&W M&P pistol in .22. One of the current Coltmarked M1911 pattern pistols is also on my list of potential purchases,depending on what happens with the availability of .22 LR ammunition)

    In my military service I was an LE Specialist in the SPs inthe ANG, an MP in the ARNG and then finished up back in the ANG as a CATMinstructor. Back in the 80s we hadaccess to the 50 foot indoor range at the local ARNG armory, which had a mildsteel backstop and was limited to .22s. Shot thousands of rounds in there, andat the ROTC range on campus (I was enlisted, but I had a friend who was in theROTC and he was able to get me in a few times) which was also limited to .22because of a soft steel backstop and questionable ventilation . . .

    I've done LOTS of shooting with all of them. I find it worksbest to do accuracy drills with the .22s. They don't have much recoil, but thebalance and trigger pull and sight picture are all the same.

    For practice with the bigger guns I usually use an IPSC orIDPA target or an NRA B-34 (1/2 scale) target. For the .22s I usually use the ½scale B-34 targets or the 1/3rdscale B-29 or TQ-16 or TQ-20 or TQ-22 targets. I basically do my same set of drills at the same distances, but on a muchsmaller target. It helps a LOT to keep in tune and not spend as much moneydoing it.

    The Ciener unit for the Beretta M9 is serviceable. TheBeretta factory unit works better, and does have a hammer de-cocker/safety,just like the original.

    The Ciener unit for the Glock is marginally reliable. Mineworked better after I had the chamber and the sides of the extractor where itpivots in the frame polished. If I clean it every 150 rounds or so, use goodquality ammo and lube it well, it works reasonably well.

    I have found the Advantage Arms conversion unit for the Glockto be a joy to shoot, provided that you use high velocity ammunition with aplated bullet. The same thing is true for the Sig conversion. As long as yourun ammo with a plated bullet at 1230 fps or so, they work pretty well. Withslower ammo you’ll have many failures to go fully into battery, which isaggravating. (CCI mini-mags work the best)

    I have the conversions for the G19 and G22 on dedicatedGlock frames that I bought from Glockmeister. I tried to talk Sig into sellingme a frame to put my conversion unit on, but was unsuccessful.

    I bought my Atchisson conversion for the AR-15 in 1982 fromBro-Caliber International in Cincinnati. It was very rough and didn't work verywell. Based on a 1985 article in SOLDIER OF FORTUNE Magazine I sent my conversion unit off to John NorrellArms (now in Little Rock, Arkansas) and paid him almost $300 to tune it up soit would work. IT WAS MONEY WELL SPENT! As long as I keep the unit reasonablyclean and well lubed and use good ammo, it'll shoot all day every day. (www,johnnorrellarms.com)(I don't know if he still adjusts conversion units like that or not . . . )

    I also have a Ciener converter for an AK-47 . I’ve had itfor years and haven’t shot it that much. And not in a long time. That soundslike a good project for this winter.

    Of course, the S&W .22 revolvers are a joy to shoot.Particularly the model 18.

    The Argentine conversion unit for the Browning HP is prettygood as well. Like all the rest, kept clean, lubed well and fed good qualityammo, it shoots fairly reliably. (I bought mine from Sportsman's Guide about 15 years ago. There was another importer aswell, but I haven't seen them advertised for quite a while now)

    Peter Stahl in Germany also made conversion units for theSig P6 (M225) and various of the Smith & Wesson auto pistols. I'm not surethey were ever imported into the US in any numbers. I tried to order a .22 conversionfor my S&W 39 about 30 years ago but was unsuccessful.

    MANY years ago you’d see ads in SHOTGUN NEWS for .22converters for the P38 pistol. I've never seen one and have no idea how wellthey work.

    None of my conversion units for the AR platform are theleast ammo sensitive.

    The Colt Ace & Beretta factory conversion unit willfunction with anything. Sig recommends CCI mini-mags in their conversions, andI believe that Advantage Arms recommends Remington Golden Bullets.

    Of course, many of the advantages to be found using a .22for practice are negated when .22 ammo is hard to find and/or really expensive.
    "We should always try to do the right thing and the moral thing and the legal thing, but first we should do the SMART thing."
    --John S. Farnam
    Defense Training International

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Posts
    296
    I anxiously await an opportunity to buy a Glock 44 in .22 caliber. Maybe next week . . . .
    "We should always try to do the right thing and the moral thing and the legal thing, but first we should do the SMART thing."
    --John S. Farnam
    Defense Training International

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