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  1. #31
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    Thanks for the corrections, Gunfixr/Gabe/Greg. I did over-simplify when comparing 5 rds of shotgun to 5 rounds from a rifle!

    To re-state my thoughts, the hesitations about using a shotgun as the primary weapon seem to revolve around concerns about running out of ammo (more likely due to missing the target than hits not being effective), the limitations of effective range (the possibility of unexpectedly needing to take a longer shot), and perhaps function (in the case of short-stroking a pump action--KSG?).

    From what I'm hearing in what you guys are saying, the conclusion is the same as usual--the mission will control the gear. There is no ultimate do-it-all holy grail weapon platform. The shotgun is superior in certain applications, while not in others. Considering that in the real world one can usually develop realistic expectations of the mission, it's just a matter of defining your mission parameters and the solution should be obvious.

  2. #32
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    Oct 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike135 View Post
    Thanks for the corrections, Gunfixr/Gabe/Greg. I did over-simplify when comparing 5 rds of shotgun to 5 rounds from a rifle!

    To re-state my thoughts, the hesitations about using a shotgun as the primary weapon seem to revolve around concerns about running out of ammo (more likely due to missing the target than hits not being effective), the limitations of effective range (the possibility of unexpectedly needing to take a longer shot), and perhaps function (in the case of short-stroking a pump action--KSG?).

    From what I'm hearing in what you guys are saying, the conclusion is the same as usual--the mission will control the gear. There is no ultimate do-it-all holy grail weapon platform. The shotgun is superior in certain applications, while not in others. Considering that in the real world one can usually develop realistic expectations of the mission, it's just a matter of defining your mission parameters and the solution should be obvious.
    Correct. Every weapon platform is a specialty platform. For the same reasons I have 3 M-4s, 1 AR pistol with RDS (CQB/OUT), 1 16" with 1-4x variable optic (General purpose), and 1 18" with 1-6x optic (distance precision). I'm sure we can agree, that a pistol/rifle/shotgun platform each has different envelopes and in many cases can be pared to open YOUR envelope.

    With an SI G-19 and RMR, with a shotgun, My envelope goes from zero to 100-150m without much problem. RMR with a Rifle My envelope is 0-300+, but the efficiency/effectiveness from 0-35m is less. Always keep in mind context, I know I can't do prolonged suppressive fire but that's not the shotty's mission, but dusting an enemy's general area is definitely going to keep their head down for a bit. Think about it, with the higher hit percentage of a pattern, do you really want to stick your head out for it? ya, it may not kill you but it can take you out of the fight.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
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    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    Right, the two real standouts between Rifle and Shotgun is distance and precision.

    Inside, say, 35m or so the shotty is the queen of battle, it's far more efficient at damaging the 3 life systems but distance defines it's envelope for effectiveness, everything that makes it good up close (transferring energy and pattern spread) begins to hamper its effectiveness the further away you are from the target.

    Everything that makes a rifle the weapon of choice makes it less effective than the shotgun the closer you get. With a rifle I either have to load my enemy full of holes or get a good CNS hit, this is far more likely with multiple projectiles, as above, you get more chances with one pull of the shotgun's trigger than you do with one from a rifle.
    There it IS. Right there, that's the Fucking Gettysburg Address on Rifles VS Shotguns. What else is there to say on the subject.

  4. #34
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    Oct 2010
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    Ammunition selection:

    For my final topic of this discussion let’s look at ammunition. When looking at rifle rounds there are selections but the basics are the same and have a window of effect on soft tissue. Now let’s think about the shotgun’s commercially available options.

    Slugs. I don’t consider a slug the really be antipersonnel ammunition as much as I consider it antimaterial, and this ghost loading business is think is just a flash move to show coolness factor. In the time it takes a trained person to ghost load a slug and make a precision shot I can transition to pistol and make the same shot and be back on the boom stick. Now back to slugs, these are a great option for shooting through walls and other semipermeable cover like vehicle skins and glass. My recommendation here is that 3-5 of these be carried but not loaded when running a shotgun.

    Bean bags. Not a whole lot to say about this. Considered a less than lethal alternative they can still kill and since non LEO don’t have use of force restrictions I see no real value for anyone other than LEO

    Powdered lead. This is mainly used for breaching due to the reduced debris blow back from the metal of hinges and locks. Like a bean bag I’d consider it a less than lethal round but if you’re close enough it can penetrate clothing and tissue. This has a bit of the FU factor as causes a super dirty wound the doctors are going to have to spend a ton of time cleaning out (or so I’ve heard). This is a specialty tool and breaching can be done with shot as long as you don’t get too close to the door when you do (that can sting). On top of that the last time I checked they are insanely expensive, I wouldn’t recommend anyone outside a dedicated breacher to use these rounds.

    Shot. By far the most common of shotgun ammunition, it is in my estimation the best for antipersonnel and offer a wide variety of options. My favorites include 00 buck, 000 buck, and a personal favorite #4 nickel plated Magnum Turkey loads. As already discussed Buck loads give 8-9 .30 cal projectiles at 12-1400 fps. I like the turkey load as more of an activity arrestor, yes it has the ability to kill, that’s for sure, but 2 oz. of 3.2mm projectiles at 1500 fps. will stop what you’re doing. More projectiles increases my hit percentage and they are still large enough to transfer a ton of energy to soft tissue, but depending on hit location and distance may not have enough mass to penetrate to the organs. I’ve also used these rounds as breaching rounds, because “F” that door and “F” anyone behind that door. I’ve mixed combinations of all 3 as a sh*tbag eliminating cocktail of sorts, which I would also count as an advantage of the platform and tubular magazine.

    That concludes some broad brush strokes concerning the shotgun and it’s envelopes. I have specifically avoided addressing brands, actions, upgrades/accessories, sighting systems, and ammunition brands. These discussions can either be had or found in other threads.

    ///end report///
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  5. #35
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    So, a question. Why would the average civilian (even a martial minded one) need to breach a door?

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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunfixr View Post
    So, a question. Why would the average civilian (even a martial minded one) need to breach a door?

    Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk

    Well...if you are seeing yourself as an average civilian, You have already lost me. The "average civilian" does not NEED to be able to shoot a terrorist in the eye at 25 yards with a rifle either...nor learn to stab people, nor learn tactics, nor be strong and muscular. All he NEEDS is a 5 shot snubby in his overalls and to live in a nice neighborhood.

    You may not ever have cause to breach a door, but if you base your life on "NEED" then sell me all your weapons less one simple basic handgun that works sufficiently well inside ten feet.

    NEED...the real "N" word.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #37
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    Aug 2010
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    On breaching rounds: The Go To rounds came in two catagories. 1. Polyshok rounds (I believe they went out of business) GREAT on doors and GREAT on threats WITHOUT cover. On both doors and threats I found them to work great with instant results .But they were expensive as hell compared to other alternatives and had little to no barrier penetrating capability (hence why they were such great breaching rounds) I list it by name because it was the only breaching round Ive seen with its construction parameters (conical hard plastic buffer with layered compressed lead or steel depending on type) It also must be aimed and cancels a lot of the advantages of the shotgun much like a slug does.

    2. #4 disintigrating buckshot. This is basically compressed lead pellets that are copper plated. Work well on doors, work well on threats, min to med barrier penetration ( you can go through a drywall wall pretty well, but a solid core door and lock with mainly powder it) Much easier to find than polyshok and significantly less expensive and is my go to where Im expecting to ballistically breach doors outside or inside the structure with potential threats on scene.

    3. OO buckshot. Works great on doors, works great on threats BUT expect damage on the other side of the door barrier penetration is better and is easy to find anywhere. My patrol guys keep 2 25 round boxes in the door pocket of their squads, and can dump both of them in a pull pouch located on their belt while enroute to a call that might need them. This gives them 55-58 rounds to deal with a problem .

    If you are on the way to an issue and choose the shotty, carry enough rounds on you to deal with a possibly big problem, if you dont need them , GREAT if you do, you will be very happy you have them. You might have to skip some shot to get the BG where you want them (parking garages come to mind)

    You can use it for breaching but expect damaging splash/skip beyond the door.

    "civilian" breaching. Just like skipping shot it is a skill you will use rarely if ever beyond the training environment. HOWEVER if you need it (access your kids Apt complex firedoor before LE/Fire arrives as one example, taking the slick door at the warehouse of your company cause an ex employee twisted off and cops are still 2 minutes out as another, breaching your OWN hardened area cause somebody beat you to the room with your kid) you dont want your Virgin time to be a Virgin performance, you want to be the Don Juan of the Shotgun



    Bean Bags: We use them as a tool to have a distance "less lethal" option that is easily trained/carried/used. I dont recommend them outside of LE circles EVER. We have lethal cover on tap when we use them, and if you are pointing a shotty at someone YOU want everything out of it to be a stopper, NOT a "warning"
    Last edited by coastalcop; 01-11-2017 at 11:41 AM.
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  8. #38
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    Thanks for that CC, my breaching round info/experience ended in 04'.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  9. #39
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    Jun 2008
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    SE Va
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    OK, need was perhaps the wrong word, as I did not mean it in the literal sense.
    I know why le breaches doors, was wondering why a non le would breach a door, and be justified in doing so.

    I can already see why one might need to skip shot.

    I think if your hardened room can be opened with a couple breaching rounds, you are underestimating the enemy.

    Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
    Gunsmith for Unique Armament Creations
    Class II/ 07 SOT Manufacturer
    Glock Advanced Armorer

    Liberty is not a cruise ship full of pampered passengers.
    Liberty is a Man-Of-War, and we are all crew.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    3,161
    Thanks for the high signal to noise ratio in this thread. Great shotgun information.

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