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  1. #21
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    THIS SHOTGUN IS FOR KILLING BAD GUYS



    THIS ONE IS FOR GAMES



    FOR KILLING



    FOR GAMES



    KILLING



    GAMES



    So instead of the incessant suggestion that we make do, and fight with antiques, why don't we simply agree to move the shotgun forward rather than leave it in the ghetto, the past, or the salvation army discount store.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    THIS SHOTGUN IS FOR KILLING BAD GUYS


    So instead of the incessant suggestion that we make do, and fight with antiques, why don't we simply agree to move the shotgun forward rather than leave it in the ghetto, the past, or the salvation army discount store.
    It seems that the pump action shotgun still reigns supreme in 2017. Its initial design dates back to the later 19th century.
    Here is a winchester model 1897 and this is a refinement of an earlier model.
    Last edited by Greg Nichols; 01-11-2017 at 08:00 AM.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
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  3. #23
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    I don't think that pump vs semi was the point. I think it was business vs games.
    ...Knowing is often a Barrier to Learning...

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by blastjv View Post
    I don't think that pump vs semi was the point. I think it was business vs games.
    You are correct. A similar analogy is that you don't want to be caught in your swimsuit when you should be wearing a business suit.
    I've seen cleaner lines and sharper edges on a box of donuts --- Jon Payne

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by blastjv View Post
    I don't think that pump vs semi was the point. I think it was business vs games.
    And the incessant references to hunting and to the poor using duct taped double barrels really well. Will we be using the same logic and start considering the Colt SAA as a viable platform now?
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeardedPelican View Post
    You are correct. A similar analogy is that you don't want to be caught in your swimsuit when you should be wearing a business suit.
    Not quite as each one has a purpose...and if one has spent time in teh gym, either one will impress. The point is that this is "WARRIOR TALK", not sporting clays talk, bunny busting talk, or blaze orange forum, and When we discuss shotguns it is exclusively and strictly for thje shooting of other men, and so references to the sporting applications have as much to do with our study as Olympic Bullseye has to do with our study of handgun shooting. Lets not muddy the discussions with irrelevancies.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike135 View Post
    Good stuff as always, Greg.

    I can see how the shotgun properly used is a great tool in a team environment. I could also see how it could be awesome as the first few shots in any engagement--if somebody needs to be shot, it's usually the impact of the first shot that matters most. Follow-up shots are great, but the more effective the first shot was the less they matter. The problem is when you've emptied your magazine without having the time to top it off--that's when it's good to have somebody right behind you to take over while you do what you need to do to stay in the fight. That would be my primary hesitation about the shotgun being the primary when I'm by myself--the first few shots are going to be really effective, but then what? You may or may not be able to reload, and going to the pistol may not be as desirable as having another 25 rounds still waiting in the magazine of a rifle...
    Greg or somebody will certainly correct if I have this wrong, but from the late shotgun discussion I'm reading, the point is that at close range, the shotgun allows one to do the same damage as multiple rifle shots, but with one pull of the trigger. It has already been established elsewhere that, unless shooting them in the face, at least 2-3 rifle shots would be used, "shooting them to the ground". The shotgun can do this with 1rd, inside it's range. It appears your comparison is 1 rifle to 1 shotgun round, having dispatched 5 bg and now you have 25rds left. But, in the fast, close, imperfect fight from across the room or across the urban yard, against multiple bg, not allowing you to top off, more than 5rds of rifle would've been expended. Unless you make 5 nearly perfect single shots under those constraints.
    Which, I think is the point. At these distances, the rifles capacity gives no real advantage. Once you reach the number of close bg that it does, it's more like a Rambo fight, you, alone, against the whole gang, from across the room/yard.

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  8. #28
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    If I kill another bad guy with 4 rounds of 12 ga. I will be on the news. If I go through a magazine of 223 in an urban setting, I will be on CNN.

    The point being that you will rarely use the ammo capacity of the 223.

    Inside 25 yards...no nuns or orphans being held hostage by the bad guys...the shotgun can defeat the rifle more often than not.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by blastjv View Post
    I don't think that pump vs semi was the point. I think it was business vs games.
    This is why I specifically didn't discuss actions but if you use the same thought process, I want a modern action. When I choose a fighting rifle/pistol there are criteria that need to be met the same goes for the shotgun. Semi or pump it's the feeding system that's important to me, as stated above, I prefer tubular magazines for the reasons also stated above. I wouldn't choose a bolt/breech/lever action on a shotgun any more than I'd choose one on a rifle.

    It's all about efficiency here gang, when it comes to the semi/pump argument there really isn't a huge gap in performance due to recoil recovery. I think Gabe and I will address this in the video we're doing. There is a mild technique for working a pump action by using the recoil, or riding the recoil, to make it faster.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunfixr View Post
    Greg or somebody will certainly correct if I have this wrong, but from the late shotgun discussion I'm reading, the point is that at close range, the shotgun allows one to do the same damage as multiple rifle shots, but with one pull of the trigger. It has already been established elsewhere that, unless shooting them in the face, at least 2-3 rifle shots would be used, "shooting them to the ground". The shotgun can do this with 1rd, inside it's range. It appears your comparison is 1 rifle to 1 shotgun round, having dispatched 5 bg and now you have 25rds left. But, in the fast, close, imperfect fight from across the room or across the urban yard, against multiple bg, not allowing you to top off, more than 5rds of rifle would've been expended. Unless you make 5 nearly perfect single shots under those constraints.
    Which, I think is the point. At these distances, the rifles capacity gives no real advantage. Once you reach the number of close bg that it does, it's more like a Rambo fight, you, alone, against the whole gang, from across the room/yard.

    Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
    Right, the two real standouts between Rifle and Shotgun is distance and precision.

    Inside, say, 35m or so the shotty is the queen of battle, it's far more efficient at damaging the 3 life systems but distance defines it's envelope for effectiveness, everything that makes it good up close (transferring energy and pattern spread) begins to hamper its effectiveness the further away you are from the target.

    Everything that makes a rifle the weapon of choice makes it less effective than the shotgun the closer you get. With a rifle I either have to load my enemy full of holes or get a good CNS hit, this is far more likely with multiple projectiles, as above, you get more chances with one pull of the shotgun's trigger than you do with one from a rifle.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

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