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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    802
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post

    Is this a PGO, or as I plan to call them a "Stake Out Shotgun"?
    Or is it a fully stocked weapon?...
    Even w/o the other pics, the chicken wing gave it up as a "Raptor" style "PGO", as I doubt that you would wing a full-stock PG.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by 62-10 View Post
    Even w/o the other pics, the chicken wing gave it up as a "Raptor" style "PGO", as I doubt that you would wing a full-stock PG.
    Im not sure what youre saying. Of course a perpendicular grip would put the arm in a different position-thats simple body mechanics. Conversely a "conventional" puts all of the recoil in the thumb and web of the hand, while the Birds Head transfers the recoil to the whole hand and allows the arm to better work as a shock absorber.

    The "Chicken Wing" isnt such a horrible thing at the type of distances a Wit Sec/PDW will be used. This isnt my first dance with this girl, you may not wanna take her home to your momma, you might not even wanna show her off to your friends at the country club; but she'll sure keep you warm on those cold nights in the back allies of Shitville.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    802
    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    Im not sure what youre saying. Of course a perpendicular grip would put the arm in a different position-thats simple body mechanics...
    That's exactly what I'm saying - the birdshead grip forces the wing when shooting from eye level. Gabe demonstrated the optimal technique to accurately fire a birdshead & biomechanically that includes the full wing. The compromise is in presenting more of your body hanging in the breeze, which may or may not be an issue. I personally prefer a Hogue Tamer to a Raptor, which does not require the wing. I also don't wing my PG full stocks. Not making an issue of it, just making an observation.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Va.
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    6,703
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    I plan to mount them as low as possible.
    I would imagine that an RMR or T1 mounted low and co-witnessing with a ghost ring rear and tritium from, zero'd for slugs would also be nearly dead nuts on for follow up shots with 00 Buck Shot.


    CRG-Suarez International Combat Pistol Instructor

    SIG SAUER CERTIFIED ARMORER M400, 516, 716, M4, AR15, M16


  5. #35
    I really need to take one of those for a test drive. I see the merits, questioning controllability. I should see what's out on you tube by someone who knows what they are doing. The raptor grip makes the most ergonomic sense. I'm thinking shots 2 and up might be more awkward than desired.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    45,002
    Quote Originally Posted by 62-10 View Post
    That's exactly what I'm saying - the birdshead grip forces the wing when shooting from eye level. Gabe demonstrated the optimal technique to accurately fire a birdshead & biomechanically that includes the full wing. The compromise is in presenting more of your body hanging in the breeze, which may or may not be an issue. I personally prefer a Hogue Tamer to a Raptor, which does not require the wing. I also don't wing my PG full stocks. Not making an issue of it, just making an observation.


    Well....THIS THING which you refer to is like what the shotgun in question came with -



    I dumped it because it cannot be used effectively from the eye level. It places your wrist, and upper body angle at the completely wrong biomechanical leverage and users gravitate toward below eye line shooting...or hip shooting. Remember that what I am discussing is A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ANIMAL FROM A COMPLETELY STOCKED SHOTGUN (EMPHASIS SO PEOPLE WILL ACTUALLY READ RATHER THAN JUST SKIM)



    And if the shooter insists on shooting it from eye level, the shitty bio-mechanics of the vertical pistol grip will give you this -



    Moreover, the idea is to create an "OTHER" that is 26.5" long with a 14" barrel, not simply add a pistol grip to an existing 18" barreled weapon.

    And if you are worried about "presenting your body as a target" you need to re-read alot of what we have written. One does not engage in a give and take...one shoots and kills his adversary. Incidentally, most of the bad guys I killed with a 12 ga were fired on by a stance much like what we see here as in the early 1990s a big deal was made of the "shoulder pocket" issue. Later of course we realized we could do better, but the high elbow will not cause the sky to fall.

    We did not pop these ideas out of the air over beers after a game of bullet golf.
    Last edited by Gabriel Suarez; 01-07-2017 at 09:37 AM.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #37
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
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    45,002
    Quote Originally Posted by 45Smashemflat View Post
    I really need to take one of those for a test drive. I see the merits, questioning controllability. I should see what's out on you tube by someone who knows what they are doing. The raptor grip makes the most ergonomic sense. I'm thinking shots 2 and up might be more awkward than desired.
    Nobody does. We will be doing a video as soon as our Stakeout Shotgun has been completed.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    3,364
    This tool is for quick, dirty killing at very close ranges with no time and no cover. Elbow position is irrelevant.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Ive got a bit of time behind WitSec style shotguns and yet I have not tried "Book of Suarez" position. It simply never occurred to me; but once I saw it the light bulb and head slap happened simultaneously. The "damnnnnn" and "Why didnt I think of that" had me running around the house drilling it into my head.

    Prior to this, I had limited my WitSec shooting to what I called High Hip, just above the waist, picture your right forearm touching/resting on top of your holstered handgun. In THAT position a traditional pistol grip isnt preferred but the Birds Head grip feels right and performs like you have a full stocked gun in a braced position.

    The drawback to the High Hip is it relies on a lot of instinct and practice to be sure you are on target. I added the Front Toward Enemy line as a sighting aid that can be seen at the edge of my view when Im facing the threat. Its fast and feels natural from years of "hip shooting" but its NOT perfect, just like hip shooting with a full stock shotgun isnt perfect; but its fast.

    What the "Book of Suarez" aimed position might give up in speed (I doubt much and only then if carrying at the "Hip ready"), Im betting it gives back much more in accuracy.

    Looking forward to more on this....

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    802
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    ...I dumped it because it cannot be used effectively from the eye level....
    If someone is getting smacked in the face then they are doing it wrong. As for me, I've not had an issue.

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