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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    331
    >The Federal Flight Control, which may be too tight for close work.....<

    Under 7-10 yards, I agree with the above statement - at least in my one and only shotgun, a Beretta 1301 Tactical. (And I live in a very small house.). I am not really all that familiar with the other ammo options out there. So..... I'm open to suggestions for close-in ammo, something a bit broader in nature than the Federal load. TIA

    geezer john




  2. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    186
    What a great article. I trace the decline of the shotgun to the overturning of the AWB in 2004. Pro gun people were so excited to get their carbines back, they turned their back on a very good home defense tool. If I had multiple bad guys in my front room at 3:00am in the dark, there is not a better tool to put them down as fast as humanly possible than a semi auto shotgun with 00 buck.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    South East US
    Posts
    1,401
    You guys are right the shotgun is an excellent tool!! If it's good enough for Joe....
    joe b.jpeg

  4. #14
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    733
    I will be so glad when he "Joe, shoot out the window with a shotgun" becomes a private citizen in a few days.
    Not living in fear, just ready!!!



  5. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    1,059
    "You will hear talk from new officers about how great their agency is and how they always stand behind the troops and all that jazz. Usually when I hear this its from guys new to the job who are certain that they will eradicate all evil from our society in their career."

    These are often the guys who say they got into police work because they "want to help people."
    Sorry, not my motivation at all.

    But back to the thread: as a guy who let a High Standard Model 10 slip through his hands, I often wonder why the modern equivalent doesn't exist. The 1301 has potential. Having fired it from underarm assault, and having trained my 105 lb sister to do so last weekend, I can't help thinking we're missing an opportunity here.
    No choke, no frills, no BS--just a short folder or a bullpup.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
    Posts
    44,723
    Eventually it will happen but there are simply enough 1301s out there yet...and of those that are, what % are in the hands of "Billies"? And what % are in the hands of guys who think they are fine as they are? What % will want a folder...and what % will pay for quality? The 1301 has a cheap charlie following just like the Tavor does. It is a fine weapon, but the market will dictate its accessories...and all innovation is driven by the building of wealth.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,015
    I own an Ithaca Model 37 DS Police Special I purchased new in the early eighties. The 8 shot, green parkerized, nice wood, with trigger disconnect. I had a gunsmith (Mathews & Sons, Downey, CA. long out of business) cut the stock and add a recoil pad so the length of pull did not change. Hold down the trigger, pump the action, boom. Continue to hold down the trigger and repeat. Really fast!
    GOOD GUY'S SHOOT AK'S!

    The DOG HOUSE is my comfort zone!

  8. #18
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    The Once Free State
    Posts
    12,353
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    To put the liability issue in perspective. You will hear talk from new officers about how great their agency is and how they always stand behind the troops and all that jazz. Usually when I hear this its from guys new to the job who are certain that they will eradicate all evil from our society in their career. Or....by guys who have led that blessed hand picked career.

    Policies are said to be on the books to protect the officer when in reality they are there for the most part to protect the agency. In the old days, policies were very simple and clear cut. When I started in '86, for example, the shooting policy was easily memorized and could fit, in Times New Roman size 12, on a laminated business card. The entire shoot policy!

    By the time I left the shooting policy required a 100 page booklet addendum to the ponderous full policy manual. In the past, policies were clear so everyone knew where they stood. But as the Obama mindset (oh yes...it preceded the messiah by about ten years) took hold, these policies became more and more vague so that if the agency so chose, they could easily assign blame and thus for the most part, cause passive officers who would not want to risk running afoul of the Inquisition.

    100% accountability is impossible in real battle and only possible in the wet dreams of an Internal Affairs Investigator turned Range Instructor. One generally teaches what one knows and understands.
    THIS belongs in its own thread! The sad fact is that PDs DONT care about there officers they care about the PD. What they fail to understand is caring for the officers takes care of the Department....

  9. #19
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Republic of Pirates
    Posts
    44,723
    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    THIS belongs in its own thread! The sad fact is that PDs DONT care about there officers they care about the PD. What they fail to understand is caring for the officers takes care of the Department....

    Oh...it will be...in my Killing Series.
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Third Coast
    Posts
    3,895
    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    THIS belongs in its own thread! The sad fact is that PDs DONT care about there officers they care about the PD. What they fail to understand is caring for the officers takes care of the Department....
    The only way I have found to combat this is to draft policy that tightly links the agency to the officers actions, making it harder to sever liability. When we redrafted policy our tactics instructors and those with trigger time (often the same folks) wrote the policy in such a way that so long as the officer is following the penal code in regard to force (very broad authority) they are good with agency policy.

    Sometimes its semantics and the drafting needs to take advantage of that (if you are a policy maker or have input in the process). Pursuits for instance. Policy says that "pursuits will only be initiated for felonies or crimes of violence" sounds good right?

    The belief among the "risk management attorneys" is that Agency can sever liability because "officer proactive" chased what he thought was a doper when the guy didn't signal a turn and drove off once the lights were activated. If you have a less than stellar admin (which thankfully I dont work under anymore) they are happy, feeling that they are "covered" and liability is minimized......

    Except, the officer didnt initiate the pursuit based on the turn signal, the officer initiated the pursuit based on the suspects evading in a vehicle, a felony offense and so notes in his report. The initial attempted stop was for a misdemeanor and not a crime of violence, but the fleeing in the vehicle is a felony and satisfies the policy on pursuits.

    While agencies like to sever liability, severing takes the "deep pockets" away and makes lawsuits less likely and with lower settlement payouts. it still leaves the officer hanging. I would rather that the agency is compelled to defend the actions to defend themselves (along with my own attorney) , while it brings the "deep pockets" back into the arena, those same deep pockets are now spending on the officer.

    Admittedly , my agency is the exception rather than the rule. But if you are planning you career, try to plan it around affecting change that will make the job easier for yourself and those that follow. Even the risk management lawyers like a good spirited discussion and can be swayed or the argument pulled to other areas, leaving the bones of the policy safe (especially when they are liability lawyers, NOT experts in penal code)
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

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