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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Clearwater, Florida
    Posts
    171

    Default Shooting in Crowds

    I was thinking of several different titles because a drill like this can cover numerous teaching points. Knowing one's backstop has always been a component of defensive shooting, whether an imaginary ability or not. To my thinking, knowing what is on the sides of the target/adversary and what may end up in front is probably more important. I am in the most densely populated county in Florida. There is always something or someone beyond the bad guy. We pay lip service to concerns about what may be in close proximity to our adversary but rarely have a chance to train while actively addressing that concern. We can add No-Shoot targets around Shoot targets on a live fire range but we still face the limits that make force on force training so important. A drill like this goes far in educating us about our trigger finger. We know that it takes time send a signal to press the trigger. It also takes time to "call the shot back" and times it may be impossible to stop the act of pressing the trigger. This drill, affectionately named "Flesh Walker" goes far in providing valuable perspective on the subject.

    Some observations about the videos below. This is a drill. There are limitations to drills. These limits allow us to focus on certain topics without being overwhelmed with minutia. This was the first time that our personnel have been exposed to this type of training. They had good lighting and were not forced to reload or use other force options. I restrict the shooters ability to move to a certain degree, forcing them to focus on what is going on around the adversary and relying on their shooting ability. They are not limited to "2 to 3 rounds". They decide when to stop shooting. I don't burden them or stifle their training with legal or policy what if's. That is their responsibility, although I'm happy to guide them if I can. Questionable shots are OK too as long as the shooter uses them to learn from.

    The instructions are simple. When the shooter is confident they have a relatively clear shot and they can hit the target they should shoot. The bag holder takes a knee when they hear the shots impact the bag. We start with one shooter and then add an additional one as the reps continue. The second shooter prompts them to pay attention to their respective field of fire. The possibilities for a drill like this are only limited by the imagination. In the future I'll add long guns, transitions, reloads, more obstructions, darkness, loud noises, etc. I may add a shooter in an opposing corner so they have to deal with a crossfire situation. An added benefit to this type of drill that can't be understated is using the other shooters as role players. No one wants to be "That Guy" that shot their training partners with an AirSoft pellet or marking cartridge when they were trying to hit the bad guy. Exchange training partner for wife/husband/child/friend and Flesh Walker takes on a different urgency. We had approximately 800 deputies shoot three repetitions of this drill this year with ZERO role players being hit. Again, no one wants to be "That Guy". This is a way to train for accountability.

    Tailor this to your threats. For law enforcement it could be an active killer at a nite club or for the martial civilian this could easily be a violent take-over robbery you find yourself in.




    Train with Shawn Pappas

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    http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/170218-pistol-gunfighting-myakka-city-fl.aspx#.WCYXXnC_sZQ

    CRG-4, Force on Force Gunfighting


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  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    SW Florida
    Posts
    268
    Very cool, Shawn!

    Discretionary shooting and adding risk assessment to it. Some of those shots involve a lot of risk and the shooter may be better off looking for a better angle or opportunity.

    Have you worked it with a moving shooter as well?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    11,872
    The scenario seems to be one for LEOs that are actively pursuing a known armed law breaker and not what a typical CCW person should be doing. A citizen in Florida can stand their ground and in all cases they can defend themselves. I believe a citizen could actively go after an armed goblin in the defense of others, but probably not a good idea.
    I did not notice any of the good guy shooters taking a knee to angle their shot upwards or seeking cover or at least concealment. The goblin is not shooting back which should be an important thing to consider in making a good scenario. Starting a gunfight when people are anywhere nearby is to be avoided except when done so to save lives.
    It does look like a fun exercise that will build confidence in a LEO. Not so sure how good it would be as training for a non-LEO like myself. In real life I might use the sheeple for concealment and if no loved ones where involved I would ASAP retreat from the site of disorder.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Clearwater, Florida
    Posts
    171
    I restricted their movement to approximately three feet by six feet. We don't always have the luxury of unlimited open space to move. I look at restricting movement in a drill like this much the same as DT training in a mat room. We rarely have that much room to maneuver in our daily lives.

    Barnetmill you bring up some good points. It's a drill so there has to be some parameters. If you consider being the armed citizen caught in a terrorist attack in a restaurant, theater, or a company event like the victims in San Bernardino it might be more applicable. Either way, training is like a buffet and you should take what is going to work for you and yours.
    Last edited by Shawn Pappas; 11-13-2016 at 12:21 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    957
    Shawn, Great use of NLTA.

    I run quite a few similar drills like that to get folks thinking and working on shoot through, angles etc.

    BarnetMill, Like Shawn said, It is a drill not a scenario. Very similar to range drills. IE: El presidente, in reality very few "civilians" would ever encounter 3 armed attackers and have to double tap them then come back with headshots. This is just advancing firearms training and looking past livefire. This allows for realistic movement of a target not "robotic movement" as with most moving target systems etc.

    Shawn, have you guys also tried 360 type drills. At the recent 3-Day NLTA /FOF Instructor Class I ran we used 2 pop up Autotargets and then 2 bag holders with targets behind tall cover. Students had constantly scan plus ensure they were putting enough rounds on the pop ups and looking for the targets to pop out random locations. Great drill to work 360 and scanning. Throw them in with 2-3 other shooters and it becomes interesting with lots of learning. I also run a variation of your drill in which have them shoot targets that allow for the NLTA to pass through with walkers like what you have. That way they have to think about not just misses but possibility of who is right behind. Thinking about taking a knee or changing angles.

    Glad to see you guys are really thinking outside the box down there.
    Kamp

    Kamp's Suarez International Training Schedule
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    "Progress comes to those who train and train; reliance on secret techniques will get you nowhere."
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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    1,498
    Great video - I'm really interested in seeing how more widespread use of things like UTM will change training.

    Like Barnetmill, I wondered about the last drill, and why the good guys didn't move up to get through the crowd. Thanks for explaining.

    The drill where the crowd was running forward en masse was the most valuable, I think. I've worked a tiny bit of crowd control, but enough to be wary of getting trampled by a bunch of screaming, frightened people, in addition to the problem of the shooter himself!
    Armed Puritan

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,288
    UTM changing training? Since Simunitions have been around at least 10 years and airsoft several years there are plenty of drills and training classes developed around this technology.
    Scott Vandiver
    NRA SR Training Counselor
    Utah TN FL CCW Instructor
    www.centerfiretraining.com
    My courses http://www.suarezinternationalstore....?find=vandiver

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    1,498
    Understood, definitely. My point is that UTM is much more available for non-government folks than Simunitions ever were, and much more realistic than airsoft, so I'm hoping that proliferation will make FOF training (as pioneered by SI) much more the norm.
    Armed Puritan

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    The Once Free State
    Posts
    11,466
    GREAT IDEA! Why restrict the officers movement?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Third Coast
    Posts
    3,700
    Ok , I'm behind the curve on watching this example , and I love it.

    Was thinking that a green laser sirt could be substituted ( bad guy could see the green for hits on the "target sheet" and observer could see hits on bystanders) to do it workout all the extra gear as an impromptu training evolution by a patrol sergeant , or a breakout session during a lunch in the courtroom.

    Utm is great for planned evolutions and pain is an excellent motivator, but sometimes setup and,cleanup is a hassle .

    Really,like the decision making processes and imposed limitations .

    You're rocking it Shawn!

    I gonna have to check if I've still got a parking ticket ( that the municipal court could never find to pay ) there from when I was at macdill in 92
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

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