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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    5,255
    As a trained observer, I think I may see a trend developing....

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    1,161
    Another vote for a post, please.


  3. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Kansas City Mo
    Posts
    406
    Post it please. It will be damn good reading as all your posts are.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Cheney, WA
    Posts
    2,147

    Default OK, I can take a hint.

    Look, I hope this doesn't offend anyone. You gotta walk in the old man's shoes a ways before you can appreciate being old, and slow, and tired.

    PART 1

    Since at my age health never gets better, I have been trying to work out some rational plans for CQC that take into consideration my physical limitations. Of course not one single thing here applies to the young, strong and agile. There are an infinite number of better techniques and methods, I readily and enviously concede. This stuff is just for the sick, lame and lazy like me.

    First and foremost of course is awareness and avoidance. To a certain percentage of the general population, you are prey, or to others, a hateful reminder of some past trauma when an older person physically or sexually abused them. As unfair as all of that may seem, it is what it is. Get over it and make a firm decision as to who gets to go home and who doesn’t.
    With the infinite patience and outstanding help of Dinky Dau and Guantes, I’ve been working this stuff out since last summer. Here’s what seems to work the best for me.

    Out beyond 15-18 feet, I can take a two-handed aimed head shot faster than the OG can close, so the senior citizen techniques don’t come into play until we are at closer quarters than that.
    I work at three different distances. The first, 10-15 feet, where there is enough time to raise the cane in a sort of canted en garde position. The cane is a mitsubishirooni, not a weapon. At this distance there is also time to vocalize, if you think it’s worth spending breath on that, but the purpose of both cane and vocalization is to draw attention away from you other hand which is drawing your gun and shooting. Here is where the zipper comes into effect. The first shot is from EUED, and then zipper up to full extension.

    The second distance is 9-5 feet. Since folks with implanted heart devices cannot take a punch to the chest, and folks on Coumadin cannot tolerate a knife wound there is only one practical fighting position…at cane’s length, so that the OG cannot land a blow. Thus the cane is not used as a weapon per se, but as a standoff device to keep the OG at distance until one can draw and fire.

    Because the standoff cane is only going to work for a moment or two, a fast draw and the first shot right out of the holster or pocket is imperative. EUED two rounds immediately. If you take a convulsive grip on the gun and focus on the OG (That part is easy), your EUED rounds will hit the OG in the lower abdomen. No thinking is required.

    One of two things is likely to happen. The OG has grabbed and deflected the cane, and has begun to pull it toward him. Your first two rounds to the lower abdomen have caused a noticeable pause in the forward progress of the BG. Let go of the cane immediately, take a couple of steps to the rear oblique away from the cane, and take an aimed shot to the head.

    In the other case, the OG ignores your first two rounds to the lower abdomen and the OG has grabbed and deflected the cane and is closing the distance. It is unlikely that there will be any time to move the gun to half hip or beyond. All of the shots are likely to be from the EUED position. An elderly person cannot move fast enough to evade a rush, so you find yourself at 0 feet, with the only rational response as described at the 4-0 feet range below.

    In both cases, if the OG is wielding a knife, the cane should be directed at the knife side. To grab the cane, the OG has to cross arms or switch the knife to the other hand. However it works out, the result is the cane on the opposite side from the knife. A step or two to the cane side oblique buys a fraction of a second…remember 0.2 seconds is all it takes to fire a shot.

    The third distance is 4-0 feet. If the OG has a knife you are going to get stabbed. Maybe it won’t be fatal. Whether or not it is, you can still kill the OG. The desired position is touching torso to torso, again, so that the OG cannot land a blow to the chest. This is the position that you default to if the OG is too close to thrust him away with the cane. It is also the default if there are multiple attackers. The second/third guys have your back, but you are protecting that implant. If you use all of your neck and shoulder muscles to push your head into the primary OG’s torso, there are a few moments when the other OG’s cannot force a rear choke hold on you. Of course you must use that time constructively. The shooting is all from EUED, with a punching thrust into the OG’s torso as you are firing. This is going to produce a lot of hot gases flowing back over your hand. When we did the work on shooting from the pocket, the sensation of the hot gases was “different” but not painful or unbearable. Once you’ve experienced it, no big deal, but it is best to expect it rather than to be surprised.

    Stealing from various defenses against a punch from close distance, the cane is used as a block as one steps into the OG and makes that torso to torso contact. To have any hope of matching the speed of a blow, you just lift the cane vertically. Forget all of the fancy blocking grips. The mass of the cane will slow an old person’s hand down enough that they just aren’t going to work. I spend many hours trying to block Jill’s punches with one of those soft fist thingies, and never succeeded once. Only the direct vertical lift worked, and it only worked when I simultaneously stepped inside the striking arm to close.

    Against the left handed strike, it is the same principle, but the cane is coming across your body and up, as you turn away. Again, simultaneously to moving to protect the implant, you must draw, punch the gun into the OG’s midsection and fire. We have tried various things with the pistol during this move, and to avoid shooting yourself in the support arm, it seems to work the best to scrape the gun barrel under your support arm before shooting. This puts the first rounds somewhere in the OG’s lower sternum. According to the various descriptions of wounds that arose during the contact shot thread, q.v., this is one place where a contact shot is great. Little sharp pieces of sternum go flying all through the innards. The other advantage of the contact shot is that it provides knowledge of just where the pistol barrel is pointed. The sensation of the pistol jammed into the OG’s torso is your index.

    These are the same motions and principles used in the draw against the drop, with one exception. Since the gun is likely to be held much lower than the level of the incoming punch, against the left-handed OG your gun hand rubs over your arm, rather than under it. You can practice this with a red gun on a BOB dummy, wearing all of the various clothing combinations you might ever wear on the street, trying for feel and form rather than speed. After enough practice your gun hand will adjust itself to the position of your arm, without you having to think about it. Both the people I know who have survived the DATD, as well as Israeli standard practice say that the slap against the gun has to be from inside crane, deflecting the gun outward. Expect the OG’s gun to go off, so practice this with total focus on your shots, and will yourself to ignore the OG’s gun. You have to believe that your slap with the support hand will clear the gun barrel from your most important parts.

    Another move against the attack at close quarters is to raise the cane quickly across your torso with a threatening motion. Invariably the OG will grasp the cane and pull it, which helps you to close the distance until torsos are touching. The cane will draw the eyes of the OG, allowing you to draw and shoot unnoticed by the OG.

    Unlike the agile, relatively young and healthy combatant, distance is not the friend of the senior citizen. Poor balance, arthritic joints, and just plain slow all work to make distance an enemy. Even though closing with a younger, stronger OG is a lousy idea, it is better than trying to keep out of their reach. The latter has no chance of succeeding, the former has some chance.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Cheney, WA
    Posts
    2,147

    Default Part 2

    PART 2

    All of these work as well with a knife cached on the strong side. When applying the knife, making as many sewing machine thrusts as possible seems to be the best technique. Because ideally the OG will not know he is being stabbed, there is no psychological stop with a knife. You have to make as many holes as possible in the second or two you have before things go from bad to very bad for your side. Hacking and slashing, which may work well for the younger man, is not an option for the old and slow.

    As in all knife work, the presentation and application should be made in such a manner that the OG has no knowledge of the knife until it has done its work. This is not West Side Story, and waving a knife in someone’s face is very likely to result in it being taken away and rudely applied to the more sensitive parts of your own anatomy.

    A note here...raising a threatening hand against a senior citizen or a disabled person is deadly force by definition (thin skull rule) and must be met with extreme and aggressive deadly force in turn if you are to have any chance of going home to the rocking chair, the afghan and the grandchildren. That has to be sorted out in the privacy of your own mind beforehand.

    If you are going to survive a close quarters attack, (which is iffy, something to bear in mind), there comes a moment when things turn around. The OG realizes he has been hurt, and attack is not going as planned. You can see this very clearly in their eyes if you are making eye contact, and you can also feel it in their bodies as there is a sort of a shrinking away. I can’t describe this very well, but it’s like your first orgasm, you will know exactly and precisely when it occurs, trust me. This is the defining moment of the conflict. Either you apply the coup de grace instantly, or the OG recovers and kills you.

    In the soft contact we were practicing, by far the most useful method to clean it all up was with either gun or knife, attack the throat. Punch the gun up touching the OG’s body all the way (keeps your gun oriented, and harder to grab) and into the hollow under the jaw and shoot. With the knife, thrust it into the same place and rip sideways. When using the knife, remember to close your eyes and mouth when you rip. Gooey stuff containing all of the nasty bugs in the OG’s blood stream will be splashing about.

    If you practice these various actions, you will notice that there is little defense, they are almost all offensive in nature. The truly disabled person has no effective defense. Slower, weaker, far more vulnerable, defensive moves are not much more than a source of amusement to the OG as he dismantles your corpus at his leisure. Because of the limitations, and the futility of defense, please understand that you are probably going to get hit by inswinging roundhouse punches while you are executing your attack. When you make torso to torso contact, try to mash your face into the OG’s torso, using his body mass as your face protector. If you can get a training partner to work with, have them rain pulled punches on you as you work out your moves. Most of the punches will hit hard places on your skull. I know from personal experience that you can execute fine motor movements while being clubbed repeatedly on the skull, it is an annoyance, and it will give you somewhat of a concussion and a grievous headache the next day, but it probably won’t kill you if you stay focused on what you must do. As long as you maintain that torso to torso contact, you have a chance. Allow any space between your bodies and they’ll destroy you.

    If you have long hair, likely it will be grabbed and your head jerked back and forth violently. As unpleasant as this is, it probably cannot be jerked faster than one back and forth per second. That one second is enough time to draw and fire three rounds into the OG. Focus on that and ignore everything else.

    If you carry a semi-automatic, it is best to make sure that it will not jam when punched into the target. With all of its limitations, the revolver is generally more reliable for these intimate confrontations. Five rounds that all fire trumps the heck out of fifteen rounds of which only one fires.

    The knife should open easily and as silently as you can find. Knives go into live flesh pretty easily. If you’ve never done it before, it is somewhat of a surprise just how easily. Where the skin is stretched, they just pop right in. Only where the skin is slack do you have to push very hard to get through it. They tend to bounce off or groove through the edges of green bone, which also cuts relatively easily BTW.

    If, God forbid, you should wind up in one of these situations without either gun or knife, (What were you thinking?), the same initial moves apply, but now the strong hand goes immediately for the throat and/or eyes. It isn’t easy to do while grappling erect, but if you go to the ground, remember that you can bite the Adam’s apple, even with false teeth. A good solid crushing bite may end matters in your favor. These targets should be your immediate and consistent goal, not something you think of when it seems to be going worse than you thought.

    As far as the cane as a weapon, it is fine for non lethal confrontations, but for someone with an implant, or on Coumadin, or experiencing angina, there is no such thing as a non lethal confrontation. If the cane is all you have, use it as though it were an M1 carbine with a bayonet. Thrust, aiming for the solar plexus, throat and eyes. The hooking smash is only to set up the thrust, it is not likely to produce any great results by itself. The overhand smash is more likely to tire you out than seriously hurt the OG. BTW, a thrust at the eyes will usually cause a pull back of the upper torso and the raising of a hand to defend. It is a set up for the thrust to the solar plexus, which will be now pushed forward and exposed.

    The much vaunted slashing strike to the shins or the side of the knee may not have any affect whatsoever on a dedicated opponent. Adrenaline is an outstanding anesthetic, and pain deterrence techniques waste a lot of your time and irritate the OG. You have to do mortal damage to stop a dedicated opponent.

    I practice everything slow motion, often even live fire, looking for perfect form rather than speed. As stupid as these little slo-mo strings of specialized movements may seem, when the balloon goes up they provide templates for you body’s reactions. I have been a musician on and off for some 65 years and many of us only practice slowed way down. The speed will come on stage, when we need it. If you do practice that way, be sure to not stop until you have one perfect execution. That will be the last image left in your brain from that session.

    One more analogy from music. A professional musician does not have to practice all of the possible note combinations. Just practicing variations on an arpeggio in the appropriate key is sufficient. Get that to perfection, and everything else seems to take care of itself when the time comes.

    When you’re old and gray, and every movement is an effort, and thinking is a lot harder than reminiscing, there is just no way you are going to get through a physical attack without getting hurt, probably pretty badly, possibly fatally. It’s best to get that part settled in one’s mind beforehand, so that you can focus all of your attention on what you are going to do to the OG. Maybe the most important legacy you can leave your grandchildren is that Grandpa or Grandma died fighting, not begging for mercy.

    God bless and y’all be mindful out there.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    5,255
    Quick thoughts:

    1) This is superior work. Glad we shamed/stroked/wheedled you into it.

    2) It's applicable to all the able-bodied guys out there, too. Imagine yourself 4 days into your E&E, 3 days without sleep and weak from hunger, thirst or blood loss.

    And a question: What you're saying about strikes to the knee doesn't match what I've seen/done. A strike at the side or rear has the effect of dumping the BG because it knocks out the structural support. It's not decisive in and of itself, but it anchors him for the next shot. I agree that a shot to the front can be less than impressive. So, can you tell be some more about how you were working the knee, and what specifically the problem was?

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    272
    A lot of things I've never even thought about. Thank you for posting it.

    Catherine

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Cheney, WA
    Posts
    2,147

    Default Loss of Strength

    Sam Spade posted: "What you're saying about strikes to the knee doesn't match what I've seen/done. A strike at the side or rear has the effect of dumping the BG because it knocks out the structural support."

    You betcha. The problem is the drastic fall off in strength. You can keep the same muscle mass with exercise, etcetera, but all of a sudden..,around 63, 64 in my case, the actual strength just started fading away no matter what I did.

    Five years ago I built the Idaho cabin pretty much by myself, today I have real trouble carrying a fifty pound sack of critter feed. You cannot imagine what that does to your sense of manhood. Makes a guy want to chew horseshoes and spit nails.

    I just can't swing the cane hard enough to be sure to really damage that knee joint, likewise with the overhand, can't break the collar bone.

    The thrusts work because of using my body weight to add momentum and a little speed, and the hook has some minor effect because I can twist my body weight into it.

    The loss of strength is also why disarms don't work as well as slap 'n' shoot when you're old. Just not enough grip strength to work the leverage and twist the weapon away.

    God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Switzerland
    Posts
    429
    Great post, Geezer. Very well thought out. Something to remember for one day in our lives.
    Thank you!

  10. #20
    Great post,thanks.
    Fairbairn was a big fan of thrusts over swings because all the reasons you said.

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