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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    534
    Quote Originally Posted by 336Whiskey View Post
    Not LEO, but just asking. How difficult would it be to have your own .308 bolt action in the trunk/back of the patrol vehicle? Especially if you are rural? Not to replace the AR, but as a supplement? Seems to me it would be cheaper to get a good Savage .308 and glass accurized than a .308 semi-auto.
    At the Sheriff's office I've been with for a decade, you can carry anything you wish, but you have to pay for it yourself. It wasn't too many years ago we had to buy our own patrol cars.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Atlanta ITP
    Posts
    1,463
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but sheriffs usually have that BYOG policy and city agencies have more rules on equipment right?

    I looked at volunteering for sheriff for the county and they were BYOG

  3. #33
    For the past few decades we've had a four or five page list of approved firearms. Each deputy got $600 at the time of hiring to purchase a firearm, or they could just bring their own and use it after passing qualification. A few years ago we began to issue M&Ps in 9mm and .45. We're phasing out the .45 and issuing only 9mms for the most part. I've been on units where they issues 1911s and Glock 31s. The days of bring your own are going away rapidly, but we still allow some latitude in rifles.

    We have a statement in the Use of Force Policy saying if issued equipment is ineffective or unavailable, we may use whatever is at hand. A lot take this to mean throw a scoped rifle in the truck so "it is at hand." However, now we're having vehicle inspection to ensure no "unauthorized" weapons are being carried.

    ChrisNobody has perhaps the perfect "non-5.56mm service rifle" in he's got a 14.5" PWS pistol-driven 7.62x51 with Browe optic. I wish Gabe made a 7.62, but no luck. I believe the .30 caliber AR-platform is a great choice for rural patrolling, but the 5.56mm DMR can and does get the job done.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    South East US
    Posts
    1,429
    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanNobody View Post
    Patrol doesn't have smoke but I now some of the guys are now looking in the area for smoke grenades used in airsoft or game play. It could have made a difference in this situation, but no, they're not issues. Years ago we were issued smoke and CS grenades guys did stupid things with them and as a result they were pulled back. One can't trust cops to not play with stuff I guess.
    VERY TRUE!!! A lot of those incidents "seemed like a good idea at the time!!" :)

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    447
    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanNobody View Post
    I get it, but launching rounds down range at 480+ yards is something those who don't actually go outside will question. They'll call for long containment, which truly sucks when the suspect doesn't see it your way and feels free to shoot at you. Can we shoot to 480+ yards - I'd say yes, but when the civil law suit comes and LEOs aren't trained beyond 100 yards it'll be a sticking point.

    I think the best remedy is the SI carbine or DMR school for this type of situation.
    My question on this? Where is the liability? Hitting the wife or child? Reality is, if deadly physical force is authorized. The manner in which it is implemented is of no consequence.

    Agency may not be good with it, but in the grand scheme of things it takes a lot to fire a guy and most agencies can't find enough quality applicants.

    We've had a couple incidents around here. One is guys were getting actively sniped by a mental with bolt action. 2 officers hit. Other officers put suppressive fire into the house. No policy on it. Did it become an issue? Nope.

    Second one...Again, Our guys pinned down by sniper from a house. One guys could tell what window rounds were coming out. Bracketed 5 left upper 5 right upper 5 lower left 5 lower right (something similar) guess what ? Bad guy hit, nothing else came of it.

    What is the alternative? let the guy keep taking pop shots?

    Now, not knowing the exact layout of where everyone was or just my mental picture of the layout, I envision the family was inside the house and the bad guy was out by his truck in the driveway. Liability in trying to hit him there? No one else around? He's actively trying to kill guys. Something has to be done or he will get lucky.

    To address smoke, We have been working with that for some guys on patrol. Running it during RBT sessions, it can cut both ways. Bad guy can't see you but also you can't see bad guy. Bad guy tends to not need a target or care about liability when shooting indiscriminately. A time and a place for everything but not everything is applicable in every situation.

    Jonathan, remind me to discuss or even do the enemy "sniper" drill at the Guerilla Sniper class. We can also further discuss the "liabiity" aspect. Which what it more litigious? Letting the bad guy get to the victims or sending multiple rounds his direction to pin him down so guys can manuever?

    Food for though.
    Kamp
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  6. #36
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    372
    I have been carrying a 716 for a couple of years. Out here in methland there are a bunch of open spaces, and a whole bunch of deer rifles. Backup, on the other hand can be pretty scarse. And if for some god awful reason I get stuck running the Interstate the 7.62 Nato round is very effective against car doors and winshields and all those fun things that methheads like to hide behind while blindly firing their freshly stolen weapon at you. Ask me how I know.......

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    PNW
    Posts
    58
    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    WOW 480yards is all but inconceivable here. Yeah we have that potential; but I cant ever remember hearing of a shot longer than 100yds. Yep its easy on the range (well easier for guys who shoot); but I dont even known of any ranges with distances beyond 300yrds, besides maybe Ft Meade and Im not sure the long distance range there is still open.

    A couple questions:
    1. do you guys have access to any armored vehicle separate from SWAT?
    2. is suppressive fire ever authorized?

    Finally be happy you have optics....some departments dont
    I have steel at 1200 yrds out my back door. Time to move west!!!

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    6,823
    I see dead officers. If suspect had training and knew officers were maneuvering then he'd exit structure and counter maneuver. This a bad situation all around.
    "Four words: We win; they lose."

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeromy Hasenkamp View Post
    My question on this? Where is the liability? Hitting the wife or child? Reality is, if deadly physical force is authorized. The manner in which it is implemented is of no consequence.

    Agency may not be good with it, but in the grand scheme of things it takes a lot to fire a guy and most agencies can't find enough quality applicants.

    We've had a couple incidents around here. One is guys were getting actively sniped by a mental with bolt action. 2 officers hit. Other officers put suppressive fire into the house. No policy on it. Did it become an issue? Nope.

    Second one...Again, Our guys pinned down by sniper from a house. One guys could tell what window rounds were coming out. Bracketed 5 left upper 5 right upper 5 lower left 5 lower right (something similar) guess what ? Bad guy hit, nothing else came of it.

    What is the alternative? let the guy keep taking pop shots?

    Now, not knowing the exact layout of where everyone was or just my mental picture of the layout, I envision the family was inside the house and the bad guy was out by his truck in the driveway. Liability in trying to hit him there? No one else around? He's actively trying to kill guys. Something has to be done or he will get lucky.

    To address smoke, We have been working with that for some guys on patrol. Running it during RBT sessions, it can cut both ways. Bad guy can't see you but also you can't see bad guy. Bad guy tends to not need a target or care about liability when shooting indiscriminately. A time and a place for everything but not everything is applicable in every situation.

    Jonathan, remind me to discuss or even do the enemy "sniper" drill at the Guerilla Sniper class. We can also further discuss the "liabiity" aspect. Which what it more litigious? Letting the bad guy get to the victims or sending multiple rounds his direction to pin him down so guys can manuever?

    Food for though.
    I'm interested in any aspect of skill you believe may solve this sort of problem. It has happened before, is happening someplace now, and will most certainly happen again. I can only speak for my agency, but we're held to the standard of being accountable for every single round fired and the consequence it brings. Shoot, no shoot, shoot and hit, or shoot and miss...I have to answer for it. I'm really looking forward to this course and I think we'll have a lot of different backgrounds there to bring about a worthy discussion. I believe we'll be leaving with answers, which is worth the price of admission.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    566
    We teach our guys,suppressive fire is a military tactic, whereas "directed fire" falls into our ROE and approved agency / attorney general guidelines.

    Kind of gets me thinking about an idea I had, where patrol rifle would be locked in vehicle rack, and a scoped out upper in a hard case to be swapped as needed. Would it have to be re-zeroed after swapping?

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