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  1. #11
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    Oct 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Out of curiosity, do your patrol guys ever employ smoke grenades? It seems to me as law enforcement agencies modernize their equipment and tactics, the ability to provide a screen to help maneuver or break contact might be worth visiting as a concept. You guys out west with lots of huge, open expanses might especially benefit from considering such options. Of course that might be a logistics nightmare but possibly keep some in a supervisors car or something?
    Not judging here. I've been under dire circumstances with enemy in a positive position.

    Calm elimimination of aggression, with support elements seems to be the right move. Supression of hostile action withh forward movement into kill distance seems to be an easy decision.

    Then again, I'm thinking of people whom have been shot at before
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
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  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    Not judging here. I've been under dire circumstances with enemy in a positive position.

    Calm elimimination of aggression, with support elements seems to be the right move. Supression of hostile action withh forward movement into kill distance seems to be an easy decision.

    Then again, I'm thinking of people whom have been shot at before
    I get it, but launching rounds down range at 480+ yards is something those who don't actually go outside will question. They'll call for long containment, which truly sucks when the suspect doesn't see it your way and feels free to shoot at you. Can we shoot to 480+ yards - I'd say yes, but when the civil law suit comes and LEOs aren't trained beyond 100 yards it'll be a sticking point.

    I think the best remedy is the SI carbine or DMR school for this type of situation.
    Last edited by JonathanNobody; 08-26-2016 at 01:50 AM.

  3. #13
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    WOW 480yards is all but inconceivable here. Yeah we have that potential; but I cant ever remember hearing of a shot longer than 100yds. Yep its easy on the range (well easier for guys who shoot); but I dont even known of any ranges with distances beyond 300yrds, besides maybe Ft Meade and Im not sure the long distance range there is still open.

    A couple questions:
    1. do you guys have access to any armored vehicle separate from SWAT?
    2. is suppressive fire ever authorized?

    Finally be happy you have optics....some departments dont

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    WOW 480yards is all but inconceivable here. Yeah we have that potential; but I cant ever remember hearing of a shot longer than 100yds. Yep its easy on the range (well easier for guys who shoot); but I dont even known of any ranges with distances beyond 300yrds, besides maybe Ft Meade and Im not sure the long distance range there is still open.

    A couple questions:
    1. do you guys have access to any armored vehicle separate from SWAT?
    2. is suppressive fire ever authorized?

    Finally be happy you have optics....some departments dont
    All armored vehicles are with SWAT Division. We just have Tahoes and Expos in Patrol Division. Suppressive Fire is authorized but quite frankly I'm not aware of it every being used. There was a training module a few years ago in which it was taught at the Range, but was pretty much seen as a waste of ammunition.

    You guys don't have optics?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanNobody View Post
    You guys don't have optics?
    Hahahaha Heck NO. We have Carry Handle, pencil barrel, M16a1's with triangular handguards that they make semi only. We got'em from the Army after Columbine... We did a huge test of 9mm and 556 rifles. By a huge margin the HK 53 won, then the chief said he wasnt spending the money to buy rifles that we'd never need. He told the range staff to find something cheaper and....they found the government guns for $1.00 apiece.
    M16A1_brimob.jpg

  6. #16
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    Feb 2009
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    I can't help but think of the platoon of NVA that Hathcock and Burke kept pinned down for multiple days in Elephant valley.
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  7. #17
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    The reality as well is that at some point, the guys on the ground will simply have to say, "Boss...I am not paid to die here because you are afraid of getting sued". Take away enough tools and the job simply cannot be done. Take out the guys who can make hard choices and nobody will do the job even with the right tools.

    Other than in an extremely rural area I do not see LE ever using the fire and maneuver stuff we teach and the US Mil teaches...even in Dallas.

    On something like this call I would think a gathering of forces...even if just two deputies...out side of the sight of the bad guy to form a hasty plan, and then determine if in fact it can be approached in stealth. I was not there, but if one just drives up expecting no resistance and then gets resistance...well...options are limited. But again, in a no resistance expected event, parking 1000 meters away and stalking up to the front door may not be the first choice either.

    People do get the police force they ask for and a totally UNmilitarized force does not have the gear, or temperment to successfully handle such things.
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  8. #18
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    Oct 2010
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    There's always an alternative to closing distance more quickly:
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
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    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  9. #19
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    Nov 2010
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    I live in an area where this scenario seems very possible. ..lots of wide open spaces and lots of very capable bolt gun users...and a sheriff that's half an hour away at best.

    I know LE is limited to issued gear, but am I wrong to think an AR10 would be a much better tool to deal with a guy with a 30-06 500 yards away behind a car?

    I have a nice AR10 but have been debating selling it and sticking with my AR15s. After reading the OP, I'm not so sure that's a good idea. Gabe's old GPR posts from not long ago come to mind. That concept (the .308 semi-auto as a general purpose rifle) was being explored before Gabe and the crew had really wrung out the amazing potential of a scoped AR15 with a White Oak Barrel but I wonder what our thinking is now.

    Have we moth balled the GPR concept? Is the AR15 DMR really a suitable replacement? Bear in mind that the OP terrain is my AO.

    Would be interested in the opinions of those of you that have real world perspective.
    Last edited by DogDoc; 08-26-2016 at 08:57 AM.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    There's always an alternative to closing distance more quickly:
    On the way to taking my daughter to school I was thinking more about this and came to this kind of solution and was going to ask about it. Got home and boom lol. Depending on how many guys I thought, a couple hang back and put some fire on the guy while a couple other guys race up the road in a vehicle. Conversely if there were only two guys they could do what is pictured. I assumed their chance of survival was pretty good as speed and movement would be their cover.
    Geek Warlord
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