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  1. #1

    Default Can't Always Choose Your Fight - Lesson In Patrol Rifle Skills Set

    The older I get the less I worry about a lot of things as I've learned I can't control everything.....it took me few decades to figure this out.

    The exception to this life rule is when it comes to training the patrol squad, and once again it was proven to me I can't control everything, but need to develop the skills to remedy what's dealt out. This experience is case in point:

    Patrol receives a 911 call from a female claiming her ex-husband is at their residence creating a disturbance over child custody issues - you see, he returned the child late and she called him out on it. In the course of the dispute he threatens her, takes his Remington .30-06 700 BDL from his truck and "he won't let us leave" situation unfolds. According to her he's a veteran of the foreign wars, mentally unbalanced (hence the divorce) and has talent with the rifle.

    Officers head towards the lone residence, located on an elevated position with clear terrain for 500+ yards - no cover, no concealment, and down a road at a depressed elevation to the target residence. The ex-husband, now suspect, opens fire on officers from a measured range of 483 yards and indeed has talent. The officers exit the vehicles and take what amounts to cover and concealment behind them, along with what is offered by a drainage ditch running at a 45 degree angle to the residence, but only a foot and a half deep.

    As barricade unfolds it is learned the suspect can indeed put .30-06 rounds where he wants them at the range, with precision enough to negate flanking movement or retreat. SWAT is two hours away on another call and would not be responding.

    Tools available to officers: Colt M4-type rifles with Trijicon TA01NSN and three magazines each, plus .45 caliber handguns.

    Immediate threat to officers: Suspect claims he is going to kill his ex-wife and no additional resources are on the way; also to important to mention even if resources were coming they're an hour out going code.

    Solution: Well, that's why we prepare and the DMR course with Gabe was critical to me, and the upcoming course in Oregon is vital. Somehow a projectile needs to travel from us to him in a fashion to negate the threat before he kills with ex-wife.

    End Result: Pure dumb luck - suspect commits suicide, but had he not I don't see this being a good outcome for anyone.

    Moral to the Story: You can't always choose your fight but you must prepare with what you have. Can a M4 with TA01NSN hit at 483 yards - absolutely, but we have to have the skill set to make the tool work. I was told this wasn't a patrol-level shot, but I'd say this wasn't a patrol-level shot for those who hadn't prepared and/or been trained by SI. Then again, when one hasn't got a choice in the matter about taking action what sort of excuse is really even appropriate? I say none.
    Last edited by JonathanNobody; 08-25-2016 at 04:55 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    837
    That would be a tough shot with a 4x scope and only a piece of body visible. Entire or half a torso is a whole other story.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    That would be a tough shot with a 4x scope and only a piece of body visible. Entire or half a torso is a whole other story.
    I agree. This is one reason I prefer magnified optic options over red dot only on patrol rifles. Target identification is also enhanced.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    721
    I think in general, the world has become subject to preparing for the norm. So that's what they'll train for. For instance, they'll train to be awesome at the bad guy in the alley Gabe reminds us is still there, but neglect anything else. Or they'll train to clear a room, because that is needed but, can't make the aforementioned 500 yard shot.

    Nobody wants to be excellent anymore. I'm even reevaluating my current job because A: nobody else there wants to be excellent, they just want to follow the rules and B: I can't be as excellent there because of A and honestly, if you're not pushing the envelope on the rules, you suck. Change the paradigm. I try my best to encourage people to be awesome too but it never fails. Today, somebody was saying something about how they did (which was mediocre) and I asked, "is that excellence or were you just trying to be good enough?" They replied, "just good enough, we don't got time for that other stuff." I just can't get with that. I've spent a great portion of my life being awful, the opposite of excellent, that I can't stand it now. To me, excellence is your attitude, not your skill. (You can however achieve a great level of skill if you have the attitude of excellence.)

    Sorry about the rant OP. I'm frustrated today, half at my own shortcomings, half at the shortcomings of those I work with. Doesn't change how I feel though.

    You're right, you can't choose your fight, but you can be ready when it freaking comes.
    Chris

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    520
    Out of curiosity, do your patrol guys ever employ smoke grenades? It seems to me as law enforcement agencies modernize their equipment and tactics, the ability to provide a screen to help maneuver or break contact might be worth visiting as a concept. You guys out west with lots of huge, open expanses might especially benefit from considering such options. Of course that might be a logistics nightmare but possibly keep some in a supervisors car or something?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Out of curiosity, do your patrol guys ever employ smoke grenades? It seems to me as law enforcement agencies modernize their equipment and tactics, the ability to provide a screen to help maneuver or break contact might be worth visiting as a concept. You guys out west with lots of huge, open expanses might especially benefit from considering such options. Of course that might be a logistics nightmare but possibly keep some in a supervisors car or something?
    Patrol doesn't have smoke but I now some of the guys are now looking in the area for smoke grenades used in airsoft or game play. It could have made a difference in this situation, but no, they're not issues. Years ago we were issued smoke and CS grenades guys did stupid things with them and as a result they were pulled back. One can't trust cops to not play with stuff I guess.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    447
    Definitely a case for both coordinated fire and bounding overwatch.

    483 is a cake walk with training and even a 4x. Especially with multiple officers and 3 mags a piece. Against a bolt action rifle max capacity 4 in Mag.

    Also reminds me of an active shooter we had in which one of our guys had to cross open terrain to draw the fore of the shooter while another with a Red Dot popped up and took the shot at about 175 yards.

    They said had they had magnified optics they could have taken him out from a lot farther away without having to take the chance of exposing themselves.

    A DMR belongs in the hands of a patrol officer. Same goes for Dallas. None of the patrol officers pictured had anything more than a Red Dot.

    At a minimum a Patrol rifle should have a 1-6 for as many folks as want them.

    Then about every shift and district should have something with higher magnification . Its all coll for SWAT to have them but where are they when you need them right now. Why I bought my own night vision. Get off the team all the "cool guy toys" go away.

    Also never underestimate target specific cover fire (to church it up for the liability driven folks). Keep their head down, gain the initiative. A patrol M4 has more potential for volume of fire than a bolt even if the bolt is more accurate. However a guy has to stick his head up to use the bolt gun.

    Team work is the key, as well as gear, Skill, and proper tactics. Regain the initiative as Gabe says
    Kamp
    Suarez International Tier 1 Instructor
    UTM Master Instructor Training Provider and Independent Dealer
    Kamp's Suarez International Training Schedule
    (and no, unfortunately it isn't the summer camp for our kids we all want to send them to)
    Pacific Tactical Website
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    "Progress comes to those who train and train; reliance on secret techniques will get you nowhere."
    Morihei Ueshiba

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    48,192
    I think one of the greatest assets of a warrior is adaptabilty. As Heinlein said...specialization is for insects.

    483 is baby food. I have had my 10.5" White Oak SBR out to 500 with boring accuracy. And I even took a few head shots with it for fun.

    I do think a 1-5x optic is more versatile than either an ACOG or a red dot.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Atlanta ITP
    Posts
    1,463
    I think the world of specialization is long and gone. We all need to be decathletes so to speak... Please excuse the Olympics reference.... Jim Thorpe after all started his career in my hometown.

    Someone has quoted before "specialization is for insects"... I think that stands true. If you're in the business of kicking doors and dropping bad guys, I would certainly invest in the tools for survival, check that, for victory.

    I don't kick doors, but I strive to be prolific, without being too diluted. Also someone else (I think Brent) quoted that we have a "language of violence" so we should all speak multiple "languages".

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,401
    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanNobody View Post
    The older I get the less I worry about a lot of things as I've learned I can't control everything.....it took me few decades to figure this out.

    The exception to this life rule is when it comes to training the patrol squad, and once again it was proven to me I can't control everything, but need to develop the skills to remedy what's dealt out. This experience is case in point:

    Patrol receives a 911 call from a female claiming her ex-husband is at their residence creating a disturbance over child custody issues - you see, he returned the child late and she called him out on it. In the course of the dispute he threatens her, takes his Remington .30-06 700 BDL from his truck and "he won't let us leave" situation unfolds. According to her he's a veteran of the foreign wars, mentally unbalanced (hence the divorce) and has talent with the rifle.

    Officers head towards the lone residence, located on an elevated position with clear terrain for 500+ yards - no cover, no concealment, and down a road at a depressed elevation to the target residence. The ex-husband, now suspect, opens fire on officers from a measured range of 483 yards and indeed has talent. The officers exit the vehicles and take what amounts to cover and concealment behind them, along with what is offered by a drainage ditch running at a 45 degree angle to the residence, but only a foot and a half deep.

    As barricade unfolds it is learned the suspect can indeed put .30-06 rounds where he wants them at the range, with precision enough to negate flanking movement or retreat. SWAT is two hours away on another call and would not be responding.

    Tools available to officers: Colt M4-type rifles with Trijicon TA01NSN and three magazines each, plus .45 caliber handguns.

    Immediate threat to officers: Suspect claims he is going to kill his ex-wife and no additional resources are on the way; also to important to mention even if resources were coming they're an hour out going code.

    Solution: Well, that's why we prepare and the DMR course with Gabe was critical to me, and the upcoming course in Oregon is vital. Somehow a projectile needs to travel from us to him in a fashion to negate the threat before he kills with ex-wife.

    End Result: Pure dumb luck - suspect commits suicide, but had he not I don't see this being a good outcome for anyone.

    Moral to the Story: You can't always choose your fight but you must prepare with what you have. Can a M4 with TA01NSN hit at 483 yards - absolutely, but we have to have the skill set to make the tool work. I was told this wasn't a patrol-level shot, but I'd say this wasn't a patrol-level shot for those who hadn't prepared and/or been trained by SI. Then again, when one hasn't got a choice in the matter about taking action what sort of excuse is really even appropriate? I say none.
    How often are officers required to show proficiency at 300+ yards?


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