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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    Lightbulb Yet Another Contraversial Can Of Worms

    Gents,

    Some observations.

    1). When we run FOF drills, we see students shooting continually until the bad guy falls down (preset cue for role players), runs away, or otherwise they perceive the scenario is over. I see upwards of five to ten "rounds" being fired.

    2). By all accounts, specially those from the streets, all handgun rounds tend toward "iffiness". One private students, an E.R. Doc, advised that over 85% of folks shot with handguns, regardless of caliber, survive. This iffiness includes 9mm. 40 S&W, 357 Sig, and yes, even the 45 ACP. In fact, historically, the 45 has done no better or worse than anything else.

    Read pages 73 and 74 of Shooting To Live to see how a 45 can fail. The modern ballistics have not changed THAT MUCH from those days.

    I am not putting down the 45, but rather pointing out that it is simply a handgun round and is not the vaunted American death ray some proponents have suggested.

    3). The majority of armed fights involve unequal odds and multiple adversaries. If we consider that often we may get one adversary in the fight at the time and not realize we have a multiple adversary problem we may not be thinking of the "every one gets firsts before anyone gets seconds" rule.

    4). In force on force, and documented in CRG streetfights, a shooter may not be able to read his pistol as easily as he can on a safe sedate shooting range. Thus rather than the 1.0 second speed load in reaction to running dry, you will likely experience a trigger mash, followed by a WTF! "Why didn't my gun work", and only then reload. This taking more like 2.5 seconds. And remember that a fight only takes a few seconds to begin with.

    The point is simply that we may easily develop "Ammunition Defecit Disorder".

    A higher capacity weapon will give you more trigger time before reloading is needed. Is a higher capacity weapon, specially for an individual fighter, a tactical asset??

    What say you??
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    186
    Gabe:

    I don't have any experience on the street with real live fights so anything I say is based on just what I've learned in classes.

    I remember some of the drills you did in CRG1 in MA last year. Most of the group used 1911 - some with 10 round mags, most with either 7 or 8 rounds.

    When we did the multiple adversary drills the 1911 guys had to reload 2 or 3 times. The hi-cap folks usually made it through with a couple to spare.

    With that experience, it always seemed to me that the hi-cap folks had an advantage of putting more lead into the BGs faster than the guys who had to do reloads.

    On the surface it seems that there is a tactical advantage to having more lead than less...especially with less experienced fighters.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Kansas City Mo
    Posts
    394
    I would equate ammo capacity in a gunfight to endurance in a H2H fight. You can never have enough, but OTOH, like in a H2H fight it never hurts to have devastating strength and power as that usually has the most immediate outcome on the results. Not always but often enough. Now whether .45 is so much more powerful than .9mm that it's power is worth giving up capacity/endurance for is open for a never ending debate but with a G21 with +2's on the mags, that is 16 rounds of .45 right off the bat as compared to my XD9 with 16 rounds. Either/or it's gonna be seconds that feel like eternity. My .02 and that is being generous.;)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    229
    Carry a hi-cap (10+) carry it in the largest caliber you can conceal.

    You are spot on about Americans and their talisman 1911's. Another product of SRT.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    215
    Glock 21- problem solved. :D

    I'd have to say more is better but do you really want to carry a Glock with a 50 round snail-drum hanging off the butt? The pistol is always going to be a compromise between power, capacity and size/weight.
    Also, do the large capacity magazines encourage spray-n-pray? Shoot 'em 'til they're down but shoot intelligently, maybe? You can empty a 15 round mag into the chest of someone wearing body armor and still not have solved your problem.

    I didn't feel unarmed carrying the M9 (or the .38 revolver it replaced, for that matter) and I don't feel unarmed carrying a 1911. Still saving my pennies for the Glock 21.;)
    Sion ap Rhys

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Central New Mexico
    Posts
    403
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe Suarez
    Gents,

    Is a higher capacity weapon, specially for an individual fighter, a tactical asset??

    What say you??
    I have no street experience so take this for what its worth.

    In my eyes, yes it is an advantage. More of a chance to solve the problem(s) before needing to take the time to reload.

    Now if I could just find a way to make the extra grip thickness truly disappear on my skinny frame!
    AKA - Silk

    Be productive or be gone!
    Who can begin to estimate how many evil deeds die undone when an evil man is killed? - Geezer..RIP

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    215
    Even with a hi-cap pistol, will we be able to down the last of the multiple adversaries before he can get us? What about the time factor? If we've moved to cover, will we have time to reload? If we haven't moved to cover, will we have time to empty 15 rounds downrange?
    Valid point about the one-hand operation. I can reload with one hand but there ain't nothin' speedy about it. That's also why I prefer the semi-auto shotgun over the pump.
    Sion ap Rhys

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    5,698
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe Suarez
    A higher capacity weapon will give you more trigger time before reloading is needed. Is a higher capacity weapon, specially for an individual fighter, a tactical asset??

    What say you??
    Yes, it's an asset. I'll go one step further.

    Consider that modern ammunition is remarkably consistent across calibers. There's really minimal difference in expansion and body penetration with modern hollowpoints when you look at the fighting loads. (9, .357, 40, .45) I'll try to grab some real numbers. I have side-by-side photos in gell, if anyone can teach me how to attach them.

    I'd suggest that most people are better served with a high capacity 9 than any other gun. Besides being going longer between reloads, the 9 also has the benefit of lower recoil, meaning quicker time between aimed shots. Lower recoil also means that it's easier to handle when you're wounded or shooting support-handed. So: more bullets, smaller package, quicker follow-up shots, same penetration, similar expansion. Oh, and cheaper to practice with.

    Now that I've come out and recommended the 9, they'll probably revoke my 499 cert...

    As to what I carry personally, it's a G22, for the best reason, even better than what I've written above: It's issued and the ammo's free.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    3,033
    Gabe,
    No street experiance, but as a student of human nature, it could cut both ways.
    If you know you have a large reserve, you can shoot ignoring placement, which we all know is key. But, on the other hand, today's BGs tend to come in packs, so the large reserve gives us the ability to deal with large numbers of BGs.

    To me the best thing is training, training, training.
    Perhaps one trainig drill might be to have the BG fall and then when the student drops his/her guard fire again.
    Dave

    “The highest obligation and privilege of citizenship is that of bearing arms”. General George Patton—US Army

    Vires et honestas

    "So this is how democracy dies: to thunderous applause." Actress Natalie Portman as Padme in Star Wars Revenge of the Sith

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Not of this world
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    17,833
    I think we can all agree that it is a given that for all practical purposes a .45=a .40= a .357 Sig= a 9mm. With modern loadings, there is no real-world difference.

    A higher capacity pistol generally means a smaller, more easily controlled round, i.e. the 9mm. You may shoot a .45 or .40 faster than I can shoot a 9mm on multiple shots, but you cannot shoot a 9mm faster than you can shoot a .40 or .45. You may be very close, but I'll venture a guess and say that for most people this is true.

    If the above is true, then why would we not want to carry a higher capacity pistol? It seems to me to be a no-brainer, but maybe I'm missing something. Given equal performance in all pistol calibers, I want the fastest shooting, lightest recoiling, largest capacity pistol I can carry. For me, that a 9mm.
    **Mike Ronin on FaceBook**

    **Spero optimus instruo pro pessimus**

    **Out of destruction rises opportunity. We are only defeated when we give up. Never, ever give up. (Phil 4:13)**

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