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  1. #1
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    Default Who has the initiative? Video breakdown




    1) Is this a Proactive Shoot or Reactive Shoot?

    2) Who has the initiative?

    3) At what point would you have shot?

    4) Articulate why you would have shot when you did? Can you articulate shooting sooner than the first time shots or fired? What about after the first shots are fired?

    5) What drills do you think you would want to run to prepare for a situation like this?

    6) What kind of training do you think these officers have received?

    7) How many times do you tell the suspect to put the gun down.

    8) What did the do wrong?

    9) What did they do right?

    10) What other tactics could they have employed?

    I have numerous thoughts on this video. I could design a whole force-on-force training from this one video. Be constructive on this.
    Last edited by Jeromy Hasenkamp; 05-28-2016 at 08:16 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Oohs, this is a good one. Look forward to the discussion.


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  3. #3
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    I don't believe I've been more frustrated watching a police-involved shooting video. That was painful to watch.
    1. Reactive for sure.
    2. Perp
    3. Hand to waistband, gun on target. As he spins and points, shoot to the ground.
    4. Hard to tell timing vs. who shot on my phone, but as soon as bad guy's pistol moves from straight down I start shooting like my life depends on it. Because it does(if I'm behind the camera).
    6. I'm hearing of training and instructions that makes LEO's afraid of the aftermath of shootings, so these videos may become more common. Short answer is bad. They received bad training or nowhere near enough good training.
    7. Once maybe if I can articulate it as he makes that first turn and points the pistol. More if he survives somehow and the situation is drawn out.
    For the remaining questions, no one was willing to confront the bad guy directly, the cameraman especially was willing to constantly drop behind another officer rather than deal with the threat. I'd be happy to hear other's thoughts, though I kept wanting to hell "Go!" at the officers. They went from in control of the situation to allowing the bad guy to take control, which easily could have cost lives.

  4. #4
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    It reactive in nature. The bad guy had the initiative the entire time. He was calmly walking around with a bunch of cops running after him because he knew that none of them would shoot him. They were too busy yelling stop. The initial cop should have lit him up while busting off the X. Its one of the most basic FOF scenarios. As they were chasing him around they couldn't even flank him or box him in. Hell the guys with the AR's should have shot him in the head from the distance they were hanging back. Everyone was too busy yelling stop. They should have been playing hunter-killer instead of follow the leader.

    When would I have shot? When the gun came out of the pants. When would I stop shooting? When he was on the ground and not moving.

    What drill would prepare someone for this? The most basic beginning drill from CRG where you move to the 11 o' clock (based on how the bad guy moved) and put a burst into the target.

    What kind of training do they have? Finger painting maybe? Yelling "stop" for sure.

    How many times do you tell them to put the gun down? NONE!

    What did they do wrong? Most of it.

    What did they do right? They didn't die some how.

    What else could they have done? Anything violent.
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  5. #5
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    Failure to listen to commands at the beginning, combined with the tell tale angle of the arm reaching for a weapon, shoot him to the ground. All the other bullshit would be unnecessary. They were more interested in talking. They had every right to smoke him the entire time. If he killed a civilian they should be put in jail for not doing what needed done. Unbelievable.

  6. #6
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    Totally reactive, but, wow, how many times does the guy need to do something before he gets dusted, damn... They should have smoked the fool before he ever got across the highway.

  7. #7
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    Default Who has the initiative?

    I'm a civilian not a LEO. So from a civilian perspective if I have a guy causing me problems in daylight, in a parking lot, at that distance, and he blades/fades to draw on me as in 56-60 seconds ( see the elbow..elbow up / elbow down )...my left hand was already resting at 1 o'clock on my belt line..I'm off the X and putting hits on target....and yeah taking into account the work crew. And if for good articulated "reason" my gun was already out or for good articulated "reason" I already had hand on my gun...well same results.

    Now ( from the other perspective ) this was hunting/searching and contact...shots fired.....then chasing...chasing not even herding...chasing and yelling.

    So what actually started all this? Is this another suicide by cop situation?
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  8. #8
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    1) Is this a Proactive Shoot or Reactive Shoot?

    Starts reactive in that he officer doesn't have reason to initiate deadly force on contact. The rest of the video, however, should have been a proactive hunt.

    2) Who has the initiative?
    The suspect did at the beginning, since officer didn't now he was armed. He maintained the initiative by controlling the course of the ensuing events. At no time did the officers really seize the initiative to control their environment or his movement.

    3) At what point would you have shot?
    "Hi this is he police"
    -no response
    "Police! Stop!"
    - go to less lethal and close distance
    - see weapon and shoot.

    4) Articulate why you would have shot when you did? Can you articulate shooting sooner than the first time shots or fired? What about after the first shots are fired?

    Allowing an armed suspect, that I already know is not listening to my commands, to parade across a town is dangerous to the people I am to protect. Not only might he harm people, but in chasing him I will district traffic further increasing danger.

    5) What drills do you think you would want to run to prepare for a situation like this?

    This was another kind of 'limbo' suspect. He was neither compliant nor actively noncompliant...he was passively noncompliant. He just kind of ignored the officer's commands. Training that deals with the passively noncompliant suspect would be useful.

    6) What kind of training do you think these officers have received?

    Probably standard LE training that focuses on active noncompliance.

    7) How many times do you tell the suspect to put the gun down.

    If he has produced a gun and is not directly threatening me or someone else, once if I feel charitable.

    8) What did the do wrong?

    This should have been handled quickly and decisively by the officer that handled the initial contact. Once he failed to contain the situation the responding officers failed to aggressively end the situation.

    9) What did they do right?
    They seemed to treat corners with care and the officers generally seemed to handle external threats - cars and such - well.

    10) What other tactics could they have employed?

    Not sure why they were all on foot. Aside from aggressively ending the situation not sure what other tactics could have been added.

  9. #9
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    Dang that's a touch one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeromy Hasenkamp View Post


    Wow. First off this got my heart racing. Not only am I an NAU alum, but the house I lived in in my last semester gets some video time. I went on several ride alongs with Flag PD before graduating to see if law enforcement was actually something I wanted to get into. Not sure I met the officer wearing the cam.

    1) Is this a Proactive Shoot or Reactive Shoot?
    reactive

    2) Who has the initiative?
    Not the officer - seems like the bad guy had plenty of opportunity to do some serious damage to bystanders if he had wanted
    3) At what point would you have shot?
    In this situation as soon as I saw the hand on the gun.

    4) Articulate why you would have shot when you did? Can you articulate shooting sooner than the first time shots or fired? What about after the first shots are fired?
    Suspect failed to respond to a single one of the officer's commands. By this point I he is already non compliant. I have to know that as soon as I determine this guy is non compliant there is a greater chance he may become combative. As soon as I see hand on gun, he's getting shot until he stops. The officer involved doesn't do a bad job at timing in my opinion, his weakness is positioning and letting the guy run around town by not shooting to stop.

    5) What drills do you think you would want to run to prepare for a situation like this?
    I don't think typical shoot/no shoot scenarios will fix what (didn't) happened here. Training on where to approach suspects from and where to move to gain a tactical advantage would be the ticket. Seems like the officer shoots, and scrambles for cover that had no tactical advantage what so ever. Instead of yelling hey bud flagstaff PD, let's take 15 seconds and come up with a tactical approach plan I case this guy starts shooting at me.

    6) What kind of training do you think these officers have received?
    Flag PD receives decent training I imagine, but I believe that their typical calls lull them into complacency. What was likely demonstrated was lack of understanding and executing department policy (I cannot imagine what is seen is a clear demonstration of department policy).

    7) How many times do you tell the suspect to put the gun down.
    Twice

    8) What did the do wrong?
    Approach the suspect without a tactical game plan. Let the suspect contiunue to run amok done the street.

    9) What did they do right?

    Didn't shoot any civilians. Closed down traffic via radio.
    10) What other tactics could they have employed?
    Non lethal rounds. I get why they aren't shooting him, they don't want to engage someone who isn't actively engaging anyone else. That's poor training or unclear policy. But the guy needs to be stopped. A beanbag round to the chest would have been much better than hey buddy stop

    I have numerous thoughts on this video. I could design a whole force-on-force training from this one video. Be constructive on this.

  10. #10
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    Some background on this incident that isn't covered in the video.

    http://www.dothaneagle.com/news/ap/s...f0c96b8d2.html

    Original call is of a man brandishing a firearm. (from what the paper says)

    Okay lets start articulating when the first time the initial officer would have been justified in shooting:

    1) reasonable belief the subject is armed (initial radio call) no reason to believe the suspect isn't as there is no "evidence" or information the officer receives to the contrary

    2) Initial Contact: Officer Identifies and appears to be in full uniform. Subject clearly hears and even looks at the officer. As soon as officer challenges and tells him to stop, Change of direction in my mind "He's going for cover." clearly intending to take the initiative for an assault.

    3) Movement through the parking lot. Subject stops behind black car and "sizes up officer." Use of cover, weapon/officer mindset check. Does officer have gun out? Looking for the opening to spring the attack?

    4) Officer closes at a jog. Suspect doesn't pick up speed. Preparing for an attack and not flight. Officer is clearly within reasonable distance of "reported weapon"

    5) Subject not just "non-compliant" he is completing a physical act contrary to the officer's commands. This is also setting the suspect up to keep the initiative. Officer is reacting to suspect vs. having mindset that only reason he hasn't burned this guy down is because he is "letting him live and giving him a little extra time."

    6) Suspect hand goes to left waist. In the context of this situation, what other reasonable belief is there the suspect is doing something other than retrieving a weapon.

    AROUND THE 50-55 second mark is where you have more than enough to drop the hammer for Defense of Self (if you were the officer). I will discuss Defense of Others in another post.


    Question 1: Do you think the officer ever worked on shooting the suspect in the back? Clearly when the suspect goes for the gun his full back is still to the officer.
    Question 2: What distance do you think this is? Even in advanced classes have you worked on shooting on the move at 20-25 yards with a moving target?

    I never want to morning quarterback anyone, as these guys didn't get the luxury of having time to think about their response. Many lessons can always be learned from these incidents. I am sure if you asked any of the cops involved about their response, I am sure they would do things different. Just like training the body and physical skills, decision making has to be top of the training list. Physical skills can't come into play unless the decision to act has been made.

    At a minimum, go back and watch the video again. If you have not done so, watch the video concentrating on how the bad guy moves and what he does. In grain those movements so it is cataloged as "bad intent." Which is what it is. Then watch it again and think about how you would have responded to the same incident from an LE perspective. I know we would all say the suspect would not have gotten out of the first parking lot but treat each new sighting of the bad guy as a new scenario.
    Last edited by Jeromy Hasenkamp; 05-29-2016 at 02:41 PM.
    Kamp
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