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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
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    136
    Quote Originally Posted by mike135 View Post
    What are the current opinions about the best applications of a 1-6x or 1-8x optic vs a traditional scope like a 3-10x?

    I'm very interested to hear about the challenges experienced with target ID. I hear a lot of guys all over the Internet talk in terms of "I can make hits out to xxx yards with my red dot" (I'm assuming that usually means torso hits or hits on a steel target) but I rarely hear guys talk about what it takes to consistently make head shots or do any significant target ID at various distances.

    I currently run a red dot on my Recce because it's the only rifle I have, but once I add an AR pistol or SBR I want to put its accuracy potential to good use and stretch its range, so I'm following these conversations with interest as I plan the next optics purchase.
    The scenarios in the course does dictate the equipment choice to some extent. Imagine being given a photograph of the target suspect and being told to pick him or her out from amongst six to nine other suspects at 100 yards. You then need to put a bullet through his face. Being able to identify the target becomes a necessity in this course. Don't forget about the heavy mirage, sweat and uncomfortable position either.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    8,673
    Before everyone gets all hot and bothered by off set sights and optics move the rifle to the other shoulder which negates the use those things. Now what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    CQB With a Sniper Rifle

    1). Cheekweld...no need for stock weld.
    2). See around and not through the scope.
    3). Drive it out like an MP5
    4). Use visual Index Points. Top Turret on the 3x10 works great
    Sounds like a great idea. Its been a while since things like alternate sighting indexes have been discussed. Heck how long has it been since the term caveman eotech has been used around here lol. Its a skill solution and not a gear one so its not as cool.
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  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    136
    We were able to show in the DMR course the offset RMR on an optic in fact made precise and quick hits possible from the opposite shoulder, with either the dominant or weak hand on the pistol grip. It worked extremely well.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    Colorado
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCSO View Post
    We were able to show in the DMR course the offset RMR on an optic in fact made precise and quick hits possible from the opposite shoulder, with either the dominant or weak hand on the pistol grip. It worked extremely well.

    What was the situation in how you made it work?

    It can work in some static situations but movement tends to throw wrenches into things; Moving left and engaging a target to the right is feasible. Heck even with the gun set up on the right and shooting from the right it still only covers half the problems. Since the idea is use in CQB if you have to engage something that pops up on the left hand side and one takes off the gun is going to roll downward taking the rmr/irons with it making them unusable.
    Geek Warlord
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    HRO-6 CQB: Fighting in Structures
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  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Prescott
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    1,234
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkface View Post
    What was the situation in how you made it work?

    It can work in some static situations but movement tends to throw wrenches into things; Moving left and engaging a target to the right is feasible. Heck even with the gun set up on the right and shooting from the right it still only covers half the problems. Since the idea is use in CQB if you have to engage something that pops up on the left hand side and one takes off the gun is going to roll downward taking the rmr/irons with it making them unusable.
    we were moving, while alternating shoulders. simply said, you cannot be made to understand something until you've practiced. someone once told me many many years ago, don't knock it until you've tried it.

    Do NOT call me an armorer
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  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    136
    I don't really know what to describe. I can tell you everything Gabe had us do in the class, from snap shooting at 5 yards to "face only" shooting at 25 yards, while moving, from the left and right shoulder, with alternating hands until a proper hand could be established, worked very well with no rounds outside the face. I think you'll just have to try and then it'll be clear. I understand what you're saying, but in a world where face-only shooting is now a necessity the off-set RMR has some merit.

    Using a scope turret is an idea, but center of mass doesn't work in some engagement types.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Colorado
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    I have done it which is why I am trying to understand what was done as it wasnt successful for many many things.
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    HRO-5 Terrorist & Active Shooter Interdiction
    HRO-6 CQB: Fighting in Structures
    CRG-4 Force on Force
    HRO-5 Terrorist & Active Shooter Interdiction - 3 day
    TWOTU edition
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  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    988
    I wish I could have made the class. I am fighting the county to keep our range open and they are dragging it out. Yes the Leupold MK4 spotter with a TMR reticle is awesome. I use mine for spotting hits calling corrections and ranging targets. I have a Reece with a 2-8 mk4 leupold and sights at 1 o/c works very well. Did any one hit the steel up on the mountain behind the berm?

    Sounds like a great class sorry I missed it
    Scott Vandiver
    NRA Training Counselor
    Private Security Instructor
    Www.centerfiretraining.com

  9. #29
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]My reply is a little late in coming, but here we go. This was my second class with Suarez International, my first being Red October in 2013. The DMR class was new territory for me because I was using both my first AR type rifle and scope. I have written down a few notes below just for some observation from a new AR/scoped rifle student.[/COLOR][COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Equipment: rifle is a Suarez DMR upper with an ADM mount holding a 2.5-10 X Vortex scope. All above performed perfectly, zero problems with platform. Magazines on the other hand were troublesome at times. Originally used Hex Mags for the first day or so, but they tended to create double feeds or caused the bolt to stop mid return and not ride home into the chamber. This was remedied by borrowing a few MagPul mags from Gabe and Brian; feed problems went away after using these mags. (Thank you!)[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]CQB work: this is where my unfamiliarity with the rifle showed greatly. My hands are not used to the feel of the system yet, especially when transitioning The rifle from shoulder to shoulder. When switching from left to right shoulder, my left hand would move on to the magwell and my left hand palm would depress the bolt catch causing the bolt to stop midway when placing a new round in the chamber (unrelated to mag problems above). Likewise, when transitioning from right shoulder to left, my thumb sometimes would get in the way of the bolt when my right hand grasped the magwell and caused a similar malfunction. [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]As for my shooting at close distance: My follow up hits would always gravitate towards where my first shot was placed on the featureless IPSC targets, this improved when the photos were placed on the targets in later stages of this portion of training.[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Distance: the Vortex optic at 10 power was more than adequate to properly identify targets at 100 yards. My groups at 100 yards were a little looser than I would like. Jeromy even adjusted the scope which helped somewhat. Rifle and optics are great, I just need more practice. Lots more. [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Wrap up: The instruction was top notch, as MCSO said: "second to none". All the other students/ staff in the class had real world experience when it came to subject matter of the class and could relate with examples of how things we learned in this class could or did work in an actual situation. Special thanks to Bryan for being my command fire partner during the exercises, your knowledge and assistance was a great help for a new AR/scope shooter.[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Great class! It was wonderful meeting you all![/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
    [/COLOR]

  10. #30
    For students of the rifle there are some good observations here.

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