Reload Rifle or Transition To Pistol

[paladin4christ]

[INDENT]FM 3-06.11 (FM 90-10-1)
7-1. EFFECTIVENESS OF WEAPONS AND DEMOLITIONS
<snip>
b. Engagement Ranges. Engagement ranges are close. Studies and historical analyses have shown that only 5 percent of all targets are more than 100 meters away. About 90 percent of all targets are located 50 meters or less from the identifying soldier. Targets will be visible beyond 50 meters and engagements usually occur at 35 meters or less.<snip>

c. Engagement Times. Engagement times are short. Enemy personnel present only fleeting targets.

Perhaps, for those of us in restricted states, .30-30 or .44 mag LARs won't be much of a hindrance afterall.

[Gabe Suarez]

Recently at a Private Session here in North AZ with our man in Italy, we filmed a transition to pistol with a two-point sling.

Waddayathink??

http://www.suarezinternational.com/TRANSITION.MPG

[Decado]

Looked very smooth to me. Thanks for the video.

Decado

[John W in SC]

Recently at a Private Session here in North AZ with our man in Italy, we filmed a transition to pistol with a two-point sling.

Waddayathink??

http://www.suarezinternational.com/TRANSITION.MPG

I'm afraid I do have a couple of negative comments, but you did ask....

To begin with, a fast transition from long gun to handgun usually means the long gun is down for some reason, such as a malfunction or out of ammo. In that case, speed is essential and the distance to target is most likely close. I think I'd rather keep my left hand on the forend, drop the stock so the gun is vertical, and pull it up to my left breast. While I was doing this (with the help of gravity) I'd be drawing my handgun and firing one handed. The reason for retaining the long gun by any method is to save it for later, so if the long gun was truly toast (exploded barrel or such) I might drop it to the ground and abandon it. Looping the sling over the head has got to be slower than simply pulling the gun to the breast or dropping it. Finally, this looks like a good time to be moving off the line of attack, and trying to run while looping a sling over my head might result in doing neither very well.

Second, I have a problem with the length of the sling. The reason the method in this video works is because the sling is long enough to share with a couple of friends. I keep the slings on my rifles short enough that I can actually use them as shooting aids, not merely carrying aids. I tried the method in the video. I suspect it would not work very well with a sling at proper shooting length, especially with a pistol grip stock. Granted, the long gun in the video seems to be some sort of shotgun (I couldn't see which). Shotgun distances don't benefit much from a shooting sling, and I haven't figured out a way to both sling up and pump, so I suppose I could leave my shotgun sling extra long in case I want to loop it over my head. Then again, a rifle sling that will work as a shooting aid is generally more useful than a sling that will work for transitions to handgun. And, even considering the sling may be a different length on a rifle than on a shotgun, there is somethiing to be said for using the same transition method for whatever long gun I'm using.

Sorry about the negative comments.

John W in SC

[karl johnson]

You don't need to apologize for polite dissent around here:)

However:

1. That is certainly another way to do it, and I have done that, but it ties up a hand when you might need it. If he's so close you don't have time to loop the sling over, you should probably be beating him to death with your inert rifle rather than transitioning anyway. Doing this while moving does certainly take practice. Also, the video was taken while stationary for pedagogical reasons: Gabe is a big advocate of getting off the X, and I have yet to see him advocate any technique inconsistent with that.

2. Shooting looped up is a great help when shooting from supported positions: prone, kneeling, sitting, etc. It isn't any help standing. It also isn't of any real value to a rifleman until you are shooting past 150-200 meters, and I assume you won't be attempting to engage with your pistol at that range. In any situation where the BG's will be close enough to require transitioning rather than simply ducking behind cover the sling is only a carry strap - no matter what sort of sling you prefer. If you try clearing a building, for example, looped up like I am at a DCM match, you'll see what I mean.

[Gabe Suarez]

Gents,

No worries about differing opinions. The lesson was on Shotgun. The topic at hand was transitions. Period. Isolating a skill set and then integrating it with other skill sets works best for me. (Teach shooting and moving....teach transitions...teach transitions moving).

Andrea wanted to get video of some of the material for his use. I do not normally do this, but since he is our rep in Italy....

1). To begin with, a fast transition from long gun to handgun usually means the long gun is down for some reason.

Quite right. If you watch, the SGN is an 11-87. I press the shot, and then press again simulating finding an inoperative gun. IAD for inoperative long gun is always go to pistol. OR, you need to take a real hostage saving shot and you have a shotgun in your hands.

2). In that case, speed is essential and the distance to target is most likely close. I think I'd rather keep my left hand on the forend, drop the stock so the gun is vertical, and pull it up to my left breast. While I was doing this (with the help of gravity) I'd be drawing my handgun and firing one handed. The reason for retaining the long gun by any method is to save it for later, so if the long gun was truly toast (exploded barrel or such) I might drop it to the ground and abandon it.

Get a timer and see. There are a number of options.

If he is within one step, you go Dog Brothers on them with the big metal stick, not go to pistol. We trained that too. Your method works fine too but I can what if.....what if your pistol malfunctions....what if you need to reload...what if you need to hit the attacker or ward off an attack with your left hand...? I prefer free hands if I can get them.

Moreover, I do not like abandoning weapons if there is another option. At that point all you know is that the gun failed to work. It may be something very easy to fix which you had no time to examine. If you drop it a BG may pick it up and use it. In some of the places I have been, a weapon will not bounce twice.

3). Looping the sling over the head has got to be slower than simply pulling the gun to the breast or dropping it.

I tried a number of different ways and I found this one was the simplest, the one that works in all situations, and is fast enough to satisfy me. I do not care for police slings, or three point slings. And I do not care for several transition methods to choose from. Just not my preference.

4). Finally, this looks like a good time to be moving off the line of attack, and trying to run while looping a sling over my head might result in doing neither very well.

Moving off line. Of course!!!! Messing it up? Well....it works for me. Next time we get a wide angle lens.

5). I have a problem with the length of the sling. The reason the method in this video works is because the sling is long enough to share with a couple of friends. I keep the slings on my rifles short enough that I can actually use them as shooting aids, not merely carrying aids.

Hmmmm. Another contraversy?;)

I do not teach using slings as shooting aids. My research has shown me the likelihood of encounter will be well inside 200m. We shoot out to 150 yards (+ or -) in the various rifle classes when we can. We do not "sling up" to do so. Our concept of the sling is to carry the long gun when it is not in a ready or firing position. I like the ability to use it as a club in CQB as well and that requires not being attached to it.

I remember when I attended Cooper's Rifle Class back when he was still teaching. He mentioned his versions of the shooting slings...the Ching Sling, the CW Sling, and the venerable 1903 version for his trademarked Scout Rifle. He said the two point sling wrapped around the arm did nothing. I tend to agree with him on that.

But since I have found that students can get "minute of man" without needing a special sling, I don't worry about it too much. Will anyone need to transition to anything if they 400 yards away all slung up and gravel bellied? Probably not.

[Tgace]

I tend to try and avoid big loopy motions in my skill sets. Too many situations I can think of where room and obstructions can bring Mr. Murphy dropping down on your head.

[Gabe Suarez]

Alright then.. A study of weapon transitions. Long gun to short. What are the attributes of a good transition? If you have small clips, put them up. Let's see what we can do.

Scenario. Bad guy at 5 meters. You try to kill him with long gun. Long gun goes down. Too far away to stab him. Goial is to shoot him with pistol.

Go!

[Liberty or Death]

The sniper reality has already happened. Remember the two tangos of the beltway? What distances were involved? As I recall it was not 1300 meters...not even 800.

Most of the shots were taken within 100 yards.

[Liberty or Death]

Long gun to short. What are the attributes of a good transition?

Just off the top of my head--and because I normally practice this during live fire drills.....

An example illustrating the attributes of a good transition is (your preferred) technique of extending the support arm through the sling and dropping the rifle so it hangs diagonally across the back with the muzzle pointing downwards towards support side.

Though a split second slower than simply letting it hang on a tac sling, I find that it secures the long gun in a more solid fashion and is a bit more versatile in allowing me clear access to my sidearm regardless of whether it's carried in a thigh rig holster or concealed in an appendix carry.

Also, with the rifle slung across my back I am able to move off line, run, kneel and drop to prone if I need to. All of which would be awkward, at best, if the long gun was hanging in front of me by a tac sling.

Scenario. Bad guy at 5 meters. You try to kill him with long gun. Long gun goes down. Too far away to stab him. Goial is to shoot him with pistol.

Yikes!!!

Seems like even moving off line while simultaneously slinging/transitioning would take too long.

[BTW, I recently bought a couple M4 Replica airsofts for trainers so if anyone within driving distance wants to compare the relative merits of various weapons transitioning techniques in a force on force setting, I'm game]

My initial thought------while moving off line, release firing grip , access sidearm, shoot BG to the ground (one handed) as I retain rifle in my support hand.

What happens afterwards depends on the situation but
most likely as soon as immediate threat is disposed of---reholster sidearm/sling long gun/reacquire sidearm and reload it.

If time was of the essence I'd keep my sidearm ready instead of trying to clear the rifle because I don't know the cause of the stoppage. If the cause was a parts breakage or if I had shot dry and have no more rifle ammo then standing around with a (now) useless long gun in my hands is probably not as prudent as having a sidearm that's ready to go.

Also, since presumably I only brought out my sidearm after my long gun went down, I know that I have fresh HGN mags available should another immediate contact be imminent.

Just my .02.