Reload Rifle or Transition To Pistol

[Randy Harris]

I hate to keep steering this all over the place, but that is an excellent point Lee.

We are generally mostly concerned with pistol distance fights because those of us that are civillians, well that is what we are overwhelmingly likely to be faced with. But the specter of being shot at from WAAAAY off like your "what if" is one of those things that makes you think. I have spent some time looking over the AAR accounts of James Yeager's ambush on the BIAP rd in Iraq and the thought of a PKM (7.62x54R AP rounds) shooting at me from 1300M away, is pretty freakin' frightening when the rifle I have won't be effective at that distance IF I can even make a hit on the target at that distance. Not a pleasant idea.

Sure, historically we have been and still are in much greater danger from a thug 0-25yds away, but with the "new normal" of the War on Terror, and with the US fighting a defensive war, it is just a matter of time before we get hit again. Who is to say it will be an airliner next time? It could very well be a mortar attack, sniper, who knows? Imagine the chaos of 60mm mortars (which could very well be moved about without attracting ALOT of attention) raining down on the streets of NYC, LA, Atlanta, or just "anytown USA".

Just something to consider......

[Gabe Suarez]

Another point. There is only so much you can carry.

Is it plausible that some BG will be shooting at you with a Remington PSS .338 Lapua from 800 meters? I suppose it is. So does that mean our kit will be a similar rifle and a ghillie suit?

Nope.

The sniper reality has already happened. Remember the two tangos of the beltway? What distances were involved? As I recall it was not 1300 meters...not even 800.

Bottom line is if you take fire and realize the location of your BG, you can return fire. If he's too far away, you can still return fire, but your body had better be behind something. If you take fire from an unknown area, hit the deck and get to cover. Reread Anthony's thread on recognizing incoming.

I'm keeping my AK (if compactness is needed) or FAL (if I will be out in the open) as my primary go to rifle and a kit I can grab up with one hand and run with. I still think we need to focus on 0-50 yards as primary level skill, 50-100 yards as also important and 100 and out to limits of rifle as a special skill.

[Randy Harris]

Yeah, I didn't mean for that to sound like it was LIKELY, the Yeager thing is a WORST case kinda deal, and not likely here, but it makes you stop and think"what would I do in that situation if it happened at lunch today?".....NOT that it is likely to happen at lunch(or dinner or ever), but I run everything through the "how would I handle it with what I have with me" filter.

I generally invision things being more a rifle (me) against pistols (them) scenario as that is what is LIKELY here(if I'm lucky), but we could find ourselves in a very bad situation and like you mention, we are limited in what we can respond with. Getting out of the way looks to be the best course of action.

[Paul Gomez]

Peter Kokalis did a lot of research on this topic and he found the 25M stat to be true, as well.

Of course, there are always exceptions. I've heard that there were some shots within the SuperDome during the late unpleasantness that stretched several hundred meters...

[Randy Harris]

You mean someone really "rifled" one into the end zone?:D

Sorry couldn't let that one go by.....

[Anthony]

Great thread.
FWIW:
The shortest distance that I have engaged an enemy was about 50 yards. - Maybe less actually, in Iraq when we got 'bumped'.
Before that I had engaged an enemy from about 50 yards out to about 1000 yards.
Yes;
1000 yards with a FAL. We used our tracer to watch for the fall of shot.
A small group, we had absolutly ZERO support/heavy weapon backup.
Perhaps I am previledged ( is that the correct word ;) ) to be one of the last riflemen ( excepting snipers,) to have engaged a conventional enemy in a conventional war, with a rifle at this distance ?

BUT ALL THIS IS IRRELEVANT for most of you ( and me,) now.
I believe that Gabe is talking generally about how a civilian will probably engage somebody with a rifle. - LEOs also.
I cannot see how one might defend oneself in court shooting at a BG when the BG is a kilometre away ?
Mind you......who knows. - Whilst walking out to check your work, you might wish to take a shovel ! :D

Infantry combat distances have been reducing since WWII in general.
Actually I think they really began to reduce DURING the later part of WWII with the great deal of urban combat in the towns and cities of France & Germany etc.
Whilst there had been before of course, it wasn't to the same extent.
Hense the proliference during late WWII of pistol ( 9mm ) calibre SMGs by the Brits, Germans & Russians.
Let's not forget of course your Thompson and M1 carbine.
Regards,
Anthony.

[S-Lee]

in the end, with the distance shorten over the years, a secondary weapon becomes a necessity for someone going in the harms way. for a civilian defense, this might not be a problem, since most of the time, a civvy rifle will be clean and oiled, unlike a military rifle in the field which can be pretty beat and dirty. in the end reliability of your rifle become important. but never the less, if you are call out of your bed, would you have the time to out fit yourself with all the gear? in a SHTF deal, might be different but I can recall an incident during the Arrowhead fire a few years ago...my friend spend a lot of money outfitting his houses in the Lake arrowhead area with fire fighting equipment. He was determine to defend the houses (large compund). during the fire, the blazse swept through the Cedar Glen area and completely destoryed it. my friend;s house was standing in mist of total destruction due to his action. while he successfully defended his house.. the LEO, fire dept were give him more trouble then the looters.. the law actually detained him and ticketed him prior to the fire because he was on his dirt bike scouting the fire path and they got mad at him for not listening to them to stay home. they took away his pistol he legally wore with the permit, rip out his spark plug on his bike, took his two cell phone and radio and let him go with a ticket. .. of course.. they revoke his permit afterwards. then again a team of LE rushed him at his house shortly after the fire because some fire guy was saying about him wearing a drop leg rig around his own house. rumor past by the fire dept afterwards stated to the community that the fire was uncontrollable because my friend took all the water pressure to save his house.. and everyone was well aware that my friend had two very large water storage tank build into his compound, he draw no water from the line to fight his fire.... when he ran out of water during the night, he drove out of the area to seek help... he request the fire dept to help, but the dept just stood by in a parking lot watching the fire destory the Cedar glen area.

by the way... my friend was an ex-forest fire fighter.......

so back to transition..... at home.. you won;'t have the chance.. and you really don't want to shoot someone with a rifle in a urban area due to the media and the court system..

in a shtf situation, you are probably going to be harrssed by the LEO then anything else...so stay low profile.

when do you transition??? that is a trick question.. :)

[Gabe Suarez]

Ahhhh...California. I am so #@%^&*%%@ glad I do not live in that place any more. Such things would not happen in Arizona or other places in the True America.

[Gabe Suarez]

On another note, part of the civilian rifleman is an easily grabbed up kit that is kept by the rifle. Thus when you grab the one, the other is right thre ready to be grabbed up as well.

[Al Lipscomb]

Good data point to add. I always thought it was funny to watch the hollywood examples of shifting off of the rifle and taking up the pistol for dramatic effect.

I think range in combat with rifle is going to depend on who is doing the ambush and what they are ambushing with. If I were setting up with main battle rifles (.308 etc) I would use distance to my advantage. They can't hit what they can't see. For the assault rifle you wait until they get close and then try to overwhelm them with a very high volume of fire.