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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by warriorscience4u View Post
    Yup, Thanks for the reminder; Big Pharma never sleeps when their are profits to be made, no matter how many people they kill.

    We will NEVER see the inside story on the BONUS checks the MD's get for prescribing piles of pills, AS they kill off an entire generation of healthy men.
    Not necessarily true on the last part. Several successful lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies have forced them to list compensation to the MD's that push their pills. It's millions, and millions, and millions of dollars. The lists I've seen show that the range is usually low- to high-six figures per doctor, with significant outliers on both the 5 figure and 7 figure end. That's the public information. The total amounts are exactly as you stated, though. We'll never know.

  2. #32
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    Mar 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
    Not necessarily true on the last part. Several successful lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies have forced them to list compensation to the MD's that push their pills. It's millions, and millions, and millions of dollars. The lists I've seen show that the range is usually low- to high-six figures per doctor, with significant outliers on both the 5 figure and 7 figure end. That's the public information. The total amounts are exactly as you stated, though. We'll never know.
    As the husband of an FP (NOT GP, there is a world of difference) I do not know of any physician (including our many physician friends) compensated by drug companies except for educational opportunities clearly designated. It is a clear violation of law for doc's to receive kickbacks for ancillary services, prescriptions, or other services provided by a third party. I suspect that there is some confusion here over the docs actually employed by the industry vs kickbacks.

    They do receive free physician samples that are given to patients. Again, nothing hidden here. Anyone implying that doctors are compensated for prescribing practices is mistaken. They would go to jail or lose their licenses for such malfeasance.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.

    H. L. Mencken

  3. #33
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    Mar 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed is Life View Post
    Where can this data be found?
    I've seen some released data in the past, but the only one I've seen recently I can't point to directly for personal reasons. I will say that companies are sued from time to time and certain documents are made public. I don't mean to be obstinate or evasive but I can't go much further.

    And baker, you are correct. Kickbacks are illegal, and off-label use can be dangerous as well.

    One edit: Re-reading my post I mentioned high 6- and 7-figures per doctor; I misspoke. I believe that included groups of doctors. In my defense I foolishly posted hastily of serious matters while dealing with two screaming toddlers. My apologies.
    Last edited by Captain Ron; 12-27-2015 at 10:25 PM.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin
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    296
    In 2006 I was prescribed novastatin. I took it for a few years without a problem. Then they changed my prescription to simvastatin.

    In the fall of 2012 I developed muscle aches. I did some research and discovered that such symptoms are common with statins. I started taking CoQ10 and never refilled the prescription and the muscle aches went away.

    I think djk010468 was correct in his observation that we aren't doctors, and that statins are certainly appropriate for some people under certain circumstances. But it is also true that not all doctors keep up on current research (how could they, really? they can't be experts on every damn thing, unless you go to a specialist who should be) and that one should be an informed consumer of medical care.
    "We should always try to do the right thing and the moral thing and the legal thing, but first we should do the SMART thing."
    --John S. Farnam
    Defense Training International

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    3,181
    Sorry, never mind.

    Didn't realize this was a necro-thread.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    Just as valid today as the day we posted it. Not all doctors know as much as they make out to. Research everything yourself...or don't...its your life.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #37
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff22 View Post
    I think djk010468 was correct in his observation that we aren't doctors, and that statins are certainly appropriate for some people under certain circumstances.
    Really???? They are only good for lowering cholesterol... but why??? Cholesterol does NOT cause heart disease, people! Cholesterol is a critical building block that your body uses to repair damage! So why would you want to lower it?

    It is like saying, "well there are usually many police at a crime scene, so we need to get rid of the police in order to stop the crime!" Utterly ludicrous!

    There is absolutely no use for statins (except for making illicit profits for the drug companies - because these drugs do not improved a person's health but rather further degrades it).
    VGF 5/2013, CPM 8/2013, ARG 9/2013, TASI 10/2013, CRG-2 3/2014, CRG-3 6/2014, HRO-3 8/2014, HITS-5 5/2015

  8. #38
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    May 2000
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    Dj..whoever...no we are not doctors...but we are not mindless lemings either. And some doctors are mindless lemmings...like in any industry. They promote poor ideas about health, diet, and other things that are outdated and have been disproven. The BMI stuff and dietary fat comes immediately to mind.

    I have never met a healthy vibrant and happily living athletic person that takes statins. But I have met plenty who are physical wrecks that do.

    So...are you a lemming or a smart 21st century first world person with the ability to research?
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    549
    One of the most infuriating thing I hear in life is "I'm just going to trust my doctor, they're the expert." I've had doctors guess at how to treat symptoms and refuse to discuss cause, doctors who have no idea what they are prescribing(asked about some details and was quoted the 30-yr old archaic details of an old drug), doctors who haven't the slightest clue about nutrition tell me all vitamins are quackery, and on and on.

    Doctors receive zero required nutrition classes in some medical schools, and lipservice in many others. They are forbidden per their licensing entity to discuss nutrition and/or supplements as a cure for any condition, only general recommendations. They are people like any other career field, which is 80% mediocrity at best. Statins essentially cause your body to eat your brain, as it lowers cholesterol throughout your body. How many times do we need to hear eggs are bad for you, then good for you, then bad for you again?

    Blindly following a doctor's orders is no different than the guru worship we see in other areas of life. As already mentioned, you can search online and find supporting and/or contradicting research of a treatment protocol. A well-spent weekend can net you at least a decent outline for a doctoral-level thesis on any topic popular enough to have enough studies. If you have a family member who is a medical professional they can get you full access to medical database search engines that make it even easier.

    Or: To make a self-defense analogy, go buy your pistol because it's popular with your favorite instructor, put it in a Serpa or even an Uncle Mike's nylon piece of awesome because it's what everyone else is doing, shoot paper from 7 feet from a perfect isosceles stance in an indoor range once a year(because that's what the local police qualification test requires, and they're professionals), and go on with your life.

    I don't remember the stats off the top of my head but doctors are one of the leading causes of death in this country with properly prescribed and properly consumed drugs and treatment. That doesn't begin to count hospitals or mistakes. Think about that for a minute, let it sink in. I just googled it: 106,000 deaths per year from non-error, negative effects of drugs, about another 120,000 deaths from treatment-related causes. An article from 2013, Journal of Patient Safety, claims between 210,000 to 440,000 patients who go to the hospital die from some type of preventable harm.

    I'll continue to research the things in life that matter to me. I'm not really worried what others think.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    760
    I don't have a dog in the "anti statins" or "pro statins" hunt but in general...

    If Doctors, other medical professionals, drug companies, governments, etc. with published information about studies on statins, their indications, side effects, results, etc. are not to be trusted then whose actual research is to be trusted?
    How and what such drugs do, are useful for, etc. is determined by scientifically valid research studies of their effects on populations if I'm not mistaken.

    IOW, how can we as individuals "do our own research" if we have no source of information that is other than anecdotal to go on?
    What other actual valid research is there to look for? I'm talking actual scientific method, statistically meaningful, blind/double blind study; real research stuff here. Not the "I read on an Internet blog...".

    Any and all actual valid research on drugs, vaccines, etc. is done in populations. (individuals are not populations**) This sort of research is typically done by medical professionals and their organizations, either funded by the developers of such drugs, government, etc.
    Well duh! who else would bother?

    And if someone does research to promote their product to make money are they by definition not to be trusted? That seems to just not fit at all, unless it only applies to "drug" companies and not other capitalist oriented research directed at nutrition, nutritional products or anything "non Western Medicine" in general.


    **In doing research on things like drugs this cannot be too strongly emphasized.
    “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.” George Orwell

    "Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a 'hermit'
    because he doesn't come over and break your windows.
    "

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