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  1. #1141
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    Looks more to me like some sort of cur dog. There are many cur dog types about besides the black mouth. The Black mouth is only one of the many curs. Perhaps someone else has an idea. Plotts while often black do come in other colors and cur dogs were in the past bred only for work and not looks. So I think it is hard to say and could be the artist was just painting a general dog that a hunter might have with him.
    I always thought of Plotts as brindle? My buddy and I have always gotten a laugh as here in AL in the classified ads I once saw “black mouth cur pups $50 or will trade for SKS or fighting roosters”.

  2. #1142
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinboysdad View Post
    I always thought of Plotts as brindle? My buddy and I have always gotten a laugh as here in AL in the classified ads I once saw “black mouth cur pups $50 or will trade for SKS or fighting roosters”.
    Plott hound in black color and as you say plotts do also come in brindle. Many of what are called plott hounds are often crossed with bulldog or pit too which does not help in describing the breed.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  3. #1143
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    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  4. #1144
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    One of my pups
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  5. #1145
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    Apr 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    Historical literature from about the 16th century on dogs and other things

    See the rest at:
    Downloadable PDF link 663 pages free.
    https://books.googleusercontent.com/...tepHAg80KcNwM6
    Yep.

    Bandogs-


  6. #1146
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    Wrinkle contest. Fighting dogs often have loose skin. Mastiffs tend to be wrinkled. Allows them to twist when grabbed by another canine to bite back and not be pinned. Typically the tails were cut to prevent the dog being grabbed behind by one wolf while others attacked from the flanks.
    Here is a contest for wrinkles.


    The lower dog is mine. Note the long nails that are beneficial for traction and also help in fighting.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  7. #1147
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    Wrinkle contest. Fighting dogs often have loose skin. Mastiffs tend to be wrinkled. Allows them to twist when grabbed by another canine to bite back and not be pinned. Typically the tails were cut to prevent the dog being grabbed behind by one wolf while others attacked from the flanks.
    Here is a contest for wrinkles.
    Somewhat.

    If you look at the best fighting dogs in the world, it's going to be old blood. All the old blood, neos, pits, old school mastiffs, they didn't have a lot of skin. A dog with too much jowels is going to have a short hold. When a dog has a hold, it's breathing through its mouth, too much skin doesn't allow breathing through the mouth.

    Dogs with lots of skin can be prone to skin issues, and other problems.

    With bandogs, people are making mastiffs better, by giving them vigor and drive. Good bandogs don't have a lot of skin though.

    From "The World of Fighting Dogs", my copy shown, you can see Swinford and his bandog.

    New Doc 2019-05-15 09.55.12_1.jpg

    New Doc 2019-05-15 09.55.12_2.jpg

    We breed out the heavy jowel. And finding non-jowelly mastiffs can be difficult to find, especially here in the US, where we as a nation excel at screwing up dog breeds.
    Last edited by weenis; 05-15-2019 at 10:05 AM.

  8. #1148
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    Quote Originally Posted by weenis View Post
    Somewhat.

    If you look at the best fighting dogs in the world, it's going to be old blood. All the old blood, neos, pits, old school mastiffs, they didn't have a lot of skin. A dog with too much jowls is going to have a short hold. When a dog has a hold, it's breathing through its mouth, too much skin doesn't allow breathing through the mouth.

    Dogs with lots of skin can be prone to skin issues, and other problems.

    With bandogs, people are making mastiffs better, by giving them vigor and drive. Good bandogs don't have a lot of skin though.

    From "The World of Fighting Dogs", my copy shown, you can see Swinford and his bandog.

    New Doc 2019-05-15 09.55.12_1.jpg

    New Doc 2019-05-15 09.55.12_2.jpg

    We breed out the heavy jowel. And finding non-jowelly mastiffs can be difficult to find, especially here in the US, where we as a nation excel at screwing up dog breeds.
    I assure you that the bottom dog that I showed can hold and rip real well. It is not the jowls, but the design or anatomy of the dog's head. People yell about old blood all of the time and most are talking about recent mixtures that do not date past the 70's in most cases. The white english in those pictures I showed existed in colonial times. Most places in the americas had such dogs and most are gone. True white English in the country are getting rare mostly being found in Georgia and Alabama to my knowledge. The dog types that they came from existed in the 16th and 17th centuries are hard to find anywhere if they still exist.
    Most people yelling about old blood really do not know what they are talking about.
    The neo is recent mixture for example. That type was hard to find in Italy after WWII and it was re-created and so is not 'old' blood
    Soon after the war, Italian painter Piero Scanziani established a breeding kennel to turn the Mastiff-type dogs of Italy into a formal breed which was then named the Neapolitan Mastiff and English Mastiff was used to help in this process.
    Mine have no problem with skin diseases and are never groomed or brushed. The skin is functionally loose, but not exaggerated so that there are hanging folds. By the way I live in NWFL which is humid much of the year.
    You use the term holding. That often denotes a Catch dog which are not kill dogs. There is a difference. There is an awful lot more to this. But loose skin is not a disadvantage in a fight and is a trait of 'old blood'. An example of catch dog would be the original bull mastiffs (dating from late 19th century) that were intended to hold poachers and not kill them. The original intent of a bulldogs or catch dogs was to control livestock, especially if slaughter was intended.
    This is the place to go if you want learn more about such topics. https://www.facebook.com/groups/OWEPS/ Just like there are a lot of detractors of WT, the same for Heather and Ray over at OWEPS. That book you quoted Ray has likely read it cover to cover multiple times and anything that is out there in english. Trouble is a lot of the good original material is in archaic versions of modern european languages and reside in small libraries that are often private or not easily available. Dog breeders in recent years have lost a lot of practical knowledge. Those that breed catch dogs do know what makes a good catch dog and what breeding works real well for that purpose. Few people are breeding the equivalent of the ancient war dogs that were intended to kill people such as the extinct Cuban Bloods for example. Such dogs did not have short jaws and may not have had loose skin since they were not intended to kill other dogs but people. Many of the ancient war dogs were not big either, about the size of the nearly extinct 60-85 lb brindle bull dog of the southern USA.
    Old accounts of war dogs
    La Monteria Infernal …… The dogs the Conquistadors brought with them were Mastiff breeds who were hardly the lap variety or destined for the plate. These attack dogs, often wearing their own armor, were the common European shock and awe tactic of the period. The first documented New World use of these canine swat teams occurred in 1495 when Bartholomew Columbus, Chris’s brother, used 20 mastiffs in a battle waged at Santa Maris el Antigua, Darien with his brother employing the same approach a year later. These dogs were trained to pursue, disembowel and dismember humans and to this purpose, enjoyed a human diet in the Americas. The Spanish reveled in holding human hunts called “la Monteria infernal “ where much sport was made of chasing and killing the local men, women and children. The noted Spanish apologist Bartolme de La Casas has left us numerous accounts of the exploits of these hounds from hell and it is easy to understand why these horrific memes still prevail in the cultures of Latin America. The names of many of these dogs so esteemed by the Spaniards still live on and here are but a few: Bercerruillo the terror of Borinquen, until he was fallen by 50 arrows, received a salary one and a half times that of an archer from his owner Ponce de Leon.
    Leoncillo, Bercerruillo’s son, was Balboa’s warrior, earned over 500 gold pesos in booty during his many campaigns, and he was the first Western dog to see the Pacific
    https://elvalleinformation.wordpress...nish-war-dogs/
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  9. #1149
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    I agree to the above.

    By hold, I mean fight, not catch. Dogs hold and shake, and jocky for position. If the match goes to fatigue, they're just holding, a few shakes, and then using whatever every is left to scratch back in (if going with Cajun rules.)

    All of this is hearsay and book/magazine knowledge, I have no first hand experience with these activities, given current legislation in the US.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  10. #1150
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    Quote Originally Posted by weenis View Post
    I agree to the above.

    By hold, I mean fight, not catch. Dogs hold and shake, and jocky for position. If the match goes to fatigue, they're just holding, a few shakes, and then using whatever every is left to scratch back in (if going with Cajun rules.)

    All of this is hearsay and book/magazine knowledge, I have no first hand experience with these activities, given current legislation in the US.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    You are talking about pit fighting which is not what I am talking about. But pound for pound I and most other people consider pit bull terriers to be the best for what are considered to be canine type athletics. The point of pit fighting is not always to kill. For example a game tested dog is not necessary the dog that wins, but the dog that does not give up even when getting whipped. Classically the dogs are separated after one has locked on to another. I have heard Ray say that some dogs that do kill in the pit will actually bit through ribs into the chest cavity. he does not fight dogs, but has close acquaintances with such people. He is in north MS just 20 minutes south of memphis TN. The grandmother of the lower dog was once used by pitdog fighter and they broke her teeth and were starving her after she killed two of their dogs. She got rescued when the police came in and these characters ended up in prison. I think they were using her as a training dog and misunderstood her calm demeanor as not being a fighter. Getting their dogs killed was not what they expected.
    Me I want dogs that can fight, but will not do so without good reason. Fighting also includes going after not only 4- legged, but 2-legged predators and still not attack a child or puppy. You want this bred into the dog and training should not be needed.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

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