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  1. #11
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    Oct 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francisp View Post
    My friend was qualified by the US Army on an M9 and had been to Iraq....

    With my Glock 19 on a US Customs target at ten feet he was barely hitting paper...scary bad.
    Another clear case of the perception and the reality not always being the same thing......many people, for some strange reason or other, ASSUME that someone who has been "qualified-which merely means has met the MINIMUM requirement" with an M9 and been to Iraq would surely be a stealthy death dealing operator. Anyone around this business for more than 10 minutes knows that is not always the case....

    The big 2 that make me nervous are " I learned to shoot in the Army" and "I grew up around guns". Those statements REALLY only tell me that....

    A. They were in the army... and
    B. Someone they knew when they were young (family or not) owned a gun.

    That is ALL it tells me with any certainty.....and from my experience those are the ones who usually need to be kept an eye on in class more than those who show up with no bad habits yet formed.

    I grew up around electricity....that does not necessarily mean you want me installing electrical wiring in your house.....
    Last edited by Randy Harris; 12-31-2013 at 04:16 PM.
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  2. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    3,219
    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Harris View Post
    Another clear case of the perception and the reality not always being the same thing......many people, for some strange reason or other, ASSUME that someone who has been "qualified-which merely means has met the MINIMUM requirement" with an M9 and been to Iraq would surely be a stealthy death dealing operator. Anyone around this business for more than 10 minutes knows that is not always the case....

    The big 2 that make me nervous are " I learned to shoot in the Army" and "I grew up around guns". Those statements REALLY only tell me that....

    A. They were in the army... and
    B. Someone they knew when they were young (family or not) owned a gun.

    That is ALL it tells me with any certainty.....and from my experience those are the ones who usually need to be kept an eye on in class more than those who show up with no bad habits yet formed.

    I grew up around electricity....that does not necessarily mean you want me installing electrical wiring in your house.....
    He also thought it was insane not to carry an m9 on safe......

    He thought he was a death dealer and told me about how he carried a kabar concealed with his beretta. He's lucky he never had to use it...(the gun or knife that is) and is stance was the most bizzare laid back awkward variant of the Weaver I had ever seen,..

  3. #13
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Johnson City, TN
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    3,057
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Upchurch View Post
    And there are people out there who will assume that just because someone has taken the official course and shot the official qualification that they know all there is to know about fighting with a handgun.
    Exactly. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Upchurch View Post
    Alex, I'm glad that your student realized that this was not necessarily the case.
    The goal here was to improve the student's chances of qualifying at the Expert level during their first attempt, because it is apparently somewhat of an embarrassment for an officer not to qualify at the Expert level. That is all we had time for. The actual gunfighting part won't come until later.

  4. #14
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    May 2009
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    Johnson City, TN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
    At least they have a round in the chamber. When I left AD Army and got a job at NSWC Crane as a "Police Officer"', they still had a mandatory empty chamber directive.
    Thanks for bringing that up. They have a round in the chamber during the qualification. It remains to be seen how that will turn out in practice.

  5. #15
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    May 2009
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    Johnson City, TN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Harris View Post
    Another clear case of the perception and the reality not always being the same thing......many people, for some strange reason or other, ASSUME that someone who has been "qualified-which merely means has met the MINIMUM requirement" with an M9 and been to Iraq would surely be a stealthy death dealing operator. Anyone around this business for more than 10 minutes knows that is not always the case....
    Exactly. We really DO teach our students more than most armed professionals are ever taught.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    VA
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    92
    The goal here was to improve the student's chances of qualifying at the Expert level during their first attempt, because it is apparently somewhat of an embarrassment for an officer not to qualify at the Expert level. That is all we had time for. The actual gunfighting part won't come until later.
    Kinda true. If you care about skill at arms, shoot for expert. If your student can apply basic sight alignment and trigger application principles and throw in a mag exchange or 2, he can shoot expert. Tell him to take his time on the final stage. There is enough time to smoke a cigarette in between shots and still finish on time.
    CRG

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    92
    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    Courses like that and rules like empty chambers are because O-6s want to make General/Admiral and they know they won't if they have a record of safety violations on their post. I saw it even in the Persain Gulf.

    I'd also be asking what holsters and mag pouches they are using. I wouldn't be too surprised if it was the UM84 flap holster

    Back in the 1911 days mags only had 5 rounds but that's because it was easier for the arms room staff to keep track of that ammo count (5,10,15,20,25....) is a whole lot easier then asking Pv2 Smith to count by Sevens...
    Thankfully, the old flap holsters are pretty rare. The Safariland 6004 is very common in the NAV. Blackhawk around also. Some ranges have cheap rigs for quals no one really uses for duty.
    Last edited by 42Willys; 12-31-2013 at 08:08 PM.
    CRG

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Dayton Ohio
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    558
    My daughter went through Navy basic several years ago. This was the qual course for the basic enlisted rank. It is meant to get the majority of the recruits safely qualified with the basic M9 operation. She later went through the Master at Arms school, navy cop/security, and the training was at a much higher level. I believe that additional training is required for those expected to be in harms way. I believe that 90% of the staff is typically expected to be in a support role instead of a direct combat role.
    My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  9. #19
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    May 2009
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    Johnson City, TN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francisp View Post
    He also thought it was insane not to carry an m9 on safe......

    He thought he was a death dealer and told me about how he carried a kabar concealed with his beretta. He's lucky he never had to use it...(the gun or knife that is) and is stance was the most bizzare laid back awkward variant of the Weaver I had ever seen,..
    So carrying it the way Gabe suggests (round in chamber, safety off, hammer on half cock) would have made his head explode?

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,084
    In the Navy in the 70s our Gunnersmate Senior Chief, a brown water Vietnam vet wasn't satisfied with the quals so we had to pass his too. This consisted of shooting coffee cans bobbing in the ships wake at distances of 10 to whatever you could see them. Basically it was trying to make a head shot while on a seesaw with the target jumping on a trampoline. No we didn't get that many hits but it definitely made our shooting better.

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