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Gabriel Suarez
01-08-2004, 09:03 AM
You get a call from your younger brother to pick up him at a sports event. There is nothing unusual about the call or his voice.
You have a CCW and carry a Taurus pistol with you.

As you frive up to the stadium, you see your brother. He's standing with two other men (18-25).

As you exit the car and begin walking toward them, you notice a fearful lok in your brother's face. Then as you close within 3 yards, your brother steps back a few feet and yells out, "They're trying to rob me".

Whatdoyoudo??

Vig Creed
01-08-2004, 09:48 AM
I immediately stop, place my hand on my pistol and partially draw, but keep the gun concealed if possible. Then scope-out the situation.

While evaluating the situation, I might move backwards, or laterally, to give me some distance. It would depend on what/who was in the immediate area and what the suspects were doing.

There is insufficient information at this point to know exactly what to do. It may be a joke, it may be the law, I don't know yet. As soon as I determine precisely what's going on, I take appropriate action.

If the suspects start to do or say anything suspicious, I'd have them at gunpoint, face down, spread-eagled on the pavement.

If at any time they start to brandish weapons, I shoot.

creed

warrior1
01-08-2004, 09:59 AM
Time to draw, but not present the weapon. You're already too close. Order the perps to keep their hands in sight and move away as your brother moves out of the line of fire. He has already moved back a couple of steps and should be moving away quickly as the perp's attention is on you. You order your brother to get to your off side facing the opposite direction with his hand on your shoulder to maintain contact and watch your six. You move back to the vehicle and disengage. (hopefully)
Ray

Steve Camp
01-08-2004, 10:16 AM
Wow... these really get the old noggin workin'. And it is such an everyday type situation... gotta work hard at getting into YELLOW and staying there.

[Assuming I know my brother well, and I know he is not one to play games, or cry WOLF!...]


MOVE, DRAW, and YELL all at the same time.

Quickly bring up my weakside hand in the proverbial STOP gesture while yelling, "STOP" at the same time moving such that the two BGs are in front of me, my brother is not in the line of fire to or beyond the perps, and such that I can eventually get my brother behind me. Draw my Taurus with my strongside hand. Hopefully my weakside hand gesturing STOP will distract their attention and disguise (at least momentarily) my draw stroke.

The next thing I'd yell would be "SHOW ME YOUR HANDS".

Note on the movement: I'd try to get back to 7yds distance IF I can and at the same time try to get between my brother and the BGs.

The next thing I'd yell would be to my brother, "GET BEHIND ME"
If my brother get's behind me, and nothing yet has happened, I ask him, "ARE THERE ANY OTHERS?"

If the BGs slowly retreat, I let them go. If anyone of them makes a sudden move with their hands, or a sudden movement towards me or my brother, I shoot them both to the ground: starting with the one that is the most threatening, double tap COM, then target 2 double tap COM, check for head, if there, headshot on target 2, then back to target 1.

Do I have a cell phone? Call the police, hold the BGs at gunpoint until the Police arrive.

-- OR --

If my brother successfully gets behind me, we retreat to my vehicle while I am continually covering the BGs. My brother retrieves my keys from my pocket (whichever one that is), he drives, and we escape and evade. (While mounting the vehicle, we retreat to the opposite side of the vehicle. I cover from the rear of the vehicle, behind the wheel, but over the trunk (since the BGs already see us). My brother drives; when he is ready to go, I enter the left rear door, still covering BGs. This IS a four door vehicle, isn't it?)

Justification:
1) Ability/means My brother would not lie. He IS being robbed. He would not simply be standing next to these two perps unless they are armed and have threatened him.

2) Opportunity Distance <= 3 yards. Within knife or H2H range; Disparity of force of the BGs towards my brother. If they want to hurt me or my brother, they have plenty of opportunity.

3) Intent My brother would not lie. He IS being robbed. The perps have demonstrated a willingness to harm him -- he wouldn't be just standing there unless he had been threatened.

My brother's fearful facial express, combined with his retreat and verbal shout of warning connote the intent and ability of the perps.
The close distance involved gives the perps plenty of opportunity.

SHIT... my brother better not be lying, or I'm in a world of hurt.

Question: Is it wrong to not perform the immediate Failure to Stop drill on target 1 before double tapping target 2?

Question: What to do if the BGs stand there, not moving, but WILL NOT show me their hands (if they are not visible). Is there refusal to show hands a sufficient trigger to immediately engage them?

Steve Camp
01-08-2004, 10:26 AM
I wrote my response without reading Creed's or Warrior1's responses. I didn't want to be influenced by their response.

I fear I have overreacted by drawing right away. But it is an interesting scenario, and I hope to learn a lot from it.

Can't wait for the end of the story.

sween1911
01-08-2004, 10:30 AM
Hold hands up, smile.

"Guys, relax. I've got a few bucks. How much do you need?"

Since we're talking 3 yards, take a few steps back out of arm's reach.

Reach back toward wallet very calmly and slowly, calmly come up with gun in retention. Quick furtive movements at that range could end up with you under the dog pile as they realize what you were doing. Keep weapon trained on whichever of the two BG's is highest in tactical/threat order (size, demeanor, little bit closer to you or innocent third party, etc etc). While backing up a few yards, verbally and calmy direct them to keep their hands where you can see them and tell your brother to walk to the side out from between you and the BG's, and come over next to you. If you say "LET HIM GO!" he'll probably be so scared that he'll stand there, waiting for direction from them. Since the setup didn't include visible weapons from the BG's, we'll assume that we started with none visible at the outset.

While taking your brother to safety, if either BG presents the ability, opportunity, and intent or the reasonable appearance of ability, opportunity, and intent to cause either of you grave bodily injury, apply bullets as needed while engaging cover, moving, etc etc.

Gabriel Suarez
01-08-2004, 11:22 AM
Ok,

I held out as long as I could. I have to tell you what happened. First a little background.

Costa Rica is a great country. Its the only Central American nation that has had a stable government and avoided the bloodshed of her neighbors. Ticos (as Costa Ricans call themselves) are clean, intelligent, and hard working folks and its truly a pleasure to visit their nation. That said, they share borders with Nicaragua and Panama, and are experiencing an influx of immigrants with the problems that often brings. The cities of CR are no more or less dangerous than any american city...and perhaps better than some.

Costa Rica recognizes their citizen's right of self-defense and obtaining a CCW permit there is no harder than in many progressive US states.

My student Guillermo has been studying the pistol with our Director of Training in CR - Juan Sepulveda, an expert marksman and gifted trainer. He has also trained with Randall Sanchez, a famous martial arts instructor in Central America. Guillermo trained with me last year and learned many of the methods he used in the confrontation at my CRG class in San Jose.

OK - to the tale.

His brother (14) called him and asked Guilermo to pick him up after a sports meet. Time 10:30 PM.

As Guillermo arrived, he saw that his bro was not alone, but accompanied by two men (roughly 18-25). He notices his brother sems worried, and that he has not waved at him or smiled. As he walked up, nobody spoke. As Guillermo got to within 10 feet, the brother jumps back and yells "me estan asaltando".

This could mean they are trying to rob or kidnap him in Central America.

Guillermo draws to low ready and moves off-line. at this one of the men takes off running. the other remains and says, "I'm not doing anything". Guilermo yells for him to leave, but the man does not comply. Guillermo tells him to leave or wait here with them for the police.

Guillermo's brother tells him that the man has already robbed him and that he has his wallet and other stuff. Guillermo goes to Close Contact Positon and takes him down ( :D with force..his emphasis :D ), and recovers his brother's belongings at gunpoint, yelling loudly for someone to call the police. (Before we make an issue of this property recovery, understand that Costa Rica is not The USA).

At this point, Guilermo notices that what were later identified as members of the man's gang are now approaching him. Guillermo, slams the man harder to the deck and yells at them to stay away. Guillermo leaves the man and he and his brother begin backing up toward their car as the gang approaches them.

At various points individuals attempt to rush him (not bothered by low ready) but are disuaded as Guillermo points in on them at Contact Ready.

Now the man Guillermo had taken to the deck rushed at him yelling for Guillermo to shoot him (with a bit of local vocabulary added in no doubt). Guillermo notices that the man is bleeding from the head ( :D :D Ahh Takedowns).

Guilermo goes to Alternative Force Grip and smashes the man with the muzzle, causing him to fall back.

As the rest of the gang kept coming, Guillermo decided that firing was the only option left and was about to send at least two of them on "the magic carpet ride". But at that moment the police arrived, and stopped the action. It all ended there.

As is typical in the US, everyone was handcuffed and explanations ellicited. After approximately two hours, Guillermo and his brother went home, and the members of the gang stayed in jail. The police told Guillermo that his skills and training saved him...not only his own life, but the hassles of killing the robber.

So there you have it. The only debrief is hat I would not personally have gone body-to-body to recover anything...but then again, maybe I would have...hard to say. Overall, congratulations to Guillermo for good tactics, good technical execution, and extra points for courage in the face of the enemy.

BIEN HECHO!!!

Vig Creed
01-08-2004, 12:11 PM
Gabe,

This situation points out one aspect of self-defense that many people who haven't worked the street don't understand. Namely, that guns don't scare everybody, especially if gangs are involved.

When confronted by a gang, be prepared to actually shoot whether they have weapons displayed or not, because you are probably going to have to shoot (and shoot fast) if you want to survive.

creed

michael
01-08-2004, 12:12 PM
A job well done!! Please give my congrats to Guillermo. I'm glad that he took his training to heart and reverted to what he had learned when the SHTF. I hope he enjoyed the takedown.:D

DaveJames
01-08-2004, 02:40 PM
I was waiting Gabe, I knew that it would turn out a little different that up here, I am surprised that he didn't shoot them,esp. after seeing that there were more of them,

Pale Horse
01-08-2004, 03:23 PM
I was just thinking and this situation depends largely on which of my brothers we are talking about here. One uses drugs and I dont really trust him that much and the other one has sticky fingers. Cause to be truthful they are generally in trouble that they caused. So in this case I will use my youngest sister.

Knowing my sister if she said she was in trouble then she was in pretty deep. So this is how I would handle the problem.

First of I would look around before picking her up. If it was all clear I would get closer maybe about 15 feet and ask what the problem was. During this time I would be moving my hand to my side arm. If she said they were or had robbed her I would draw my pistol and tell them to give what ever it was back to her and send her my way slowly. If they made sudden movements I would shoot both of them to the ground. Since my fighting is not generally offensive I dont think I would go cqb with these guys. I am not a black belt and am currently in no mood to wrestle these dirt bags. I also dont know if they are armed so getting into it with them and leaving my sister alone would be a very bad call on my part. So for me in this situation I would have to draw my pistol and keep it on them until she and I were to safety.

Gabe thats an interesting account. I was wondering if you would post more of those so we can learn from what people have done with the proper training.

Oh and about my brothers I was half way joking.

Anthony
01-12-2004, 10:49 AM
I was waiting Gabe, I knew that it would turn out a little different that up here, I am surprised that he didn't shoot them,esp. after seeing that there were more of them,

As may or may not be obvious, I've had problems with my computor since friday ( 01/09/04.) Haven't been able to post :mad:

This may sound extreme, but if you lived here you would understand. For loved ones, good freinds & workers at my companies, I always develop & insist on some type of code to be used over the phone/cel/radio to forwarn of a 'situation'.

For 4 & a half years, one of my companies guarded at times, US$ 50m in 'scratch raffel' tickets. On arriving, I would call the security guards to advise them of my arrival. If I had sworn, - 'Open the bloody gate, - I'm in a hurry', they wouldn't have ! Knowing I was held at gun-point ( for example.) The reverse was like-wise.

Your freind handled the situation well Gabe, but I don't think I would have used 'low-ready' in this situation. From the moment I drew, I'd have pointed at their faces. On recognising ( as Vig pointed out, - many BGs don't fear guns !) their lack of respect, - one ( at least ) would have dropped, - to meet his maker. Has to be that way. ;)

Regards,
Anthony.

peregrine
08-14-2006, 12:07 AM
this is a great scenario to contemplate.
as i read it i wondered right away if there were more perps, but if it happened
in person i may have had tunnel vision.

what if you had preestabished cues before hand with so and family members?
your family would probably think you're nuts, but it would help.
this may help such as a hand signal to signify some type of trouble and fingers to codify number of perps.

InTheBlack
08-15-2006, 02:04 PM
>>>
You order your brother to get to your off side facing the opposite direction with his hand on your shoulder to maintain contact and watch your six.
>>>

Waaay too complicated.

"Move backwards" might work to get him away before they can grab him. If they both grab him then you have an opportunity to act first. If only one grabs him then you know which to concentrate on.

***

Now, what I heard my brother say is "they threatened to kill me." This is now obviously a plan to kidnap followed by double murder after draining our ATM accounts.

Bruce Piffel
08-16-2006, 08:58 PM
It would be nice to know the rules of engagement where ever you travel with a gun as they change from state to state and country to country. the laws here are not the same else where. Call the police or loose the piece ? Glad it turned out for the better :)

shifter2
08-16-2006, 10:08 PM
some of you older guys might scoff at this, but as i was looking at my gunbelt the other day, it occurred to me that of all of the tools on the belt, the gun is the only one not designed for compliance. you can't rely on a weapon to "scare" someone into getting on the ground or putting their hands up with a gun. when i very first got on the street i ran into a guy i had at gunpoint who looked at me with a sleepy set of eyes and said, "watcha gonna do......shoot me?" he was right. i felt a little stupid for a second, put it away and changed plans accordingly. you'd be surprised, especially among criminals, how few of them are impressed at the sight of you drawing a weapon on them. it's usually not their first time.

i don't think i would draw my weapon immediately in a situation like this. i would have my hand on it still in my waistband and ready but not out just yet. what if the guy charges me empty handed? can't very well justify blowing him away for that. i'm confident that i can draw and drop two shots center mass before he can do anything to me, but i don't feel that well-versed in using a pistol as club. this situation sounds a lot more like something you would encounter doing EP work, i.e., get principle safe from large group of criminals and into vehicle, then make hasty retreat.

adarias
09-13-2006, 07:23 AM
Costa Rica is a great country. Its the only Central American nation that has had a stable government and avoided the bloodshed of her neighbors. Ticos (as Costa Ricans call themselves) are clean, intelligent, and hard working folks and its truly a pleasure to visit their nation. That said, they share borders with Nicaragua and Panama, and are experiencing an influx of immigrants with the problems that often brings. The cities of CR are no more or less dangerous than any american city...and perhaps better than some.

Costa Rica recognizes their citizen's right of self-defense and obtaining a CCW permit there is no harder than in many progressive US states.



Thanks Gabriel for talking that way about our country and "ticos"! Welcomed again any time.
As for the CCW permits here, the new government plans to "regulate" arms and permits...:eek: Lets hope it doesent get to a ridiculus/stupid point..

Cheers

Anthony
09-13-2006, 07:27 AM
As for the CCW permits here, the new government plans to "regulate" arms and permits...:eek: Lets hope it doesent get to a ridiculus/stupid point..

Let us hope indeed.
But the tendency in Latin America is not good. It is not good anywhere in fact, with the exception of the USA.
Regards,
Anthony.

adarias
09-13-2006, 07:46 AM
the tendency in Latin America is not good. It is not good anywhere in fact, with the exception of the USA.
Regards,
Anthony.

Dont quite get what you mean.....:confused:. The tendency to "regulate" arms..??

Anthony
09-13-2006, 07:54 AM
Dont quite get what you mean.....:confused:. The tendency to "regulate" arms..??
Exactly.
The tendency is to regulate arms.
I've seen it go from OK to VERY bad in Brazil.
Paraguay suffered. Once one could just buy over the counter there. Almost anything.
When a government says "we wish to regulate arms" it generally means more restrictions.
Regards,
Anthony.

Polar11
09-13-2006, 10:45 AM
Guillermo goes to Close Contact Positon and takes him down ( :D with force..his emphasis :D ), ...

Guilermo goes to Alternative Force Grip and smashes the man with the muzzle, causing him to fall back.

Gabe,

What books/DVD's might I acquire to learn more about the take down in the close ready position as well as the "Alternative Force Grip" technique?