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Gabe Suarez
05-07-2012, 08:09 AM
So lets discuss this. Based on what I saw this last weekend, a good man with a bolt gun can do some very nice work. And almost keep up with a semi auto (almost I said). So lets set some parameters.

1). Light as possible w/o compromising the mission (200 yard head shots, 600 yard body shots, and capable of longer shots if needed).

2). Compact so a 20" barrel is maximum.

3). A ten round DBM is desirable.

Other than those, what do you think should be on this?

Karl Kasarda
05-07-2012, 08:28 AM
Floated and light weight barrel
If we're not worried about sustained fire, a thin "pencil" barrel would be sufficient and would keep weight down.

QD Bipod
To reduce weight it'll probably need to skip a bipod or have a QD bipod system so the bipod could be kept in a pack otherwise.

Strong Sling mounts
Strong sling swivels to utilize sling support since we're probably sans bipod, when it's possible to do so. (Sling support in the field is a fairly rare occurance but it doesn't hurt to have the capability and adds no weight.)

Synthetic Stock
Polymer stock to avoid swelling/zero shift and keep lightweight.

Muzzle device
It'd be nice to reduce flash signature but, more importantly, to protect the crown while in the field.

John Chambers
05-07-2012, 08:55 AM
Short, medium heavy barrel in order to support a can hanging on the end, mounting system must be a flash hider too. Free floated of course, synthetic stock that either folds or the butt is QD so you can store it in a smaller bag. All the normal items, IE, sling swivels, bipod, etc.

Gabe Suarez
05-07-2012, 08:58 AM
I am thinking a barrel that would -

1). Be short and stiff
2). Support a can
3). Heavy enough so that ten rounds would not heat it up excessively.

SUA SPONTE
05-07-2012, 09:07 AM
Nice thought......Humping a 15 pound rifle in the mountains or urban battlefield gets old in a big hurry. I agree with much of what Karl said and would add.

- Short action - Remmington or Savage (detachable mag feed is a bonus, but not a requirement IMO understanding that it adds weight)

- One piece aluminum scope mount like DedNutz. The single piece constuction increases the releitive strength and durrability of the mount vs steel.

- 16"-18" MATCH grade barrel #5 Light weight Varmint Flutted with flashhider. Flutting has a few advantages here. weight reduction, increased heat distribution, increased ridgidity. Another option would be a Teludyne barrel.

- Synthetic stock absolutlty!!! Telescoping or folding also a bonus.

- Highest quality optics.....But NOT the largest or most powerful. For the stated operational requirments one could get away with Mk4 MR/T (16oz)

- Bipods QD for sure, GG&G are about the lightest combat durrable system that I have used.

JimD
05-07-2012, 09:10 AM
To me a number four countor or a little bigger would work. This would be slightly smaller than a PSS countour barrel. Go with Talley LW ring base combo and you will save almost a pound over a Badger rail and rings and they are very strong. Also dont put a two plus pound twenty something scope on it. A fixed 6xearly will easily to body shots at 600. I have a 9ld rifle that shoots below moa at 1k so it is very doable.

John Chambers
05-07-2012, 09:11 AM
Assuming we are going for the "no compromises, best quality" rifle, we can go with a Remington pattern action like the Surgeon, or a fully blue printed Remington. The stock system that meets the qualifications would be an AICS with the folder, but you can also get there with a custom McMillan with a folder, similar to what they have done with their M14 stocks.

chad newton
05-07-2012, 09:23 AM
Remington pss contur or heavier. Good tapered base(badger or comparable). The best optics, variable from 3-10 apx. Ten round mags I think are a great idea because you will have a very flexible platform. No single loads, which are ok for one shot and move, but in a pinch and in the right contex a bolt gun can be very dangerous.

chad newton
05-07-2012, 09:24 AM
Tapered base needs to be 20 Moa for the greatest effectiveness with 308.

chad newton
05-07-2012, 09:29 AM
I sent you pictures of mine that mark did if you want to post. I don't know how from my phone. Only thing its missing is a 10 round mag, which will eventually be on it.

themonk
05-07-2012, 09:49 AM
Assuming we are going for the "no compromises, best quality" rifle, we can go with a Remington pattern action like the Surgeon, or a fully blue printed Remington. The stock system that meets the qualifications would be an AICS with the folder, but you can also get there with a custom McMillan with a folder, similar to what they have done with their M14 stocks.

^^This - I would like the stock to have
Detachable mag
Adjustable comb height
Adjustable length of pull
Glass bedded pillar blocks with a free floating barrel
Be great if it had a folding stock
Maybe a forward picatinny rail for NV
Ambidextrous flush cups

I would want to do the bipod and glass choices myself.

SUA SPONTE
05-07-2012, 09:58 AM
^^This - I would like the stock to have
Detachable mag
Adjustable comb height
Adjustable length of pull
Glass bedded pillar blocks with a free floating barrel
Be great if it had a folding stock
Maybe a forward picatinny rail for NV
Ambidextrous flush cups

I would want to do the bipod and glass choices myself.

Keep in mind guys there are indeed lots of features available that can be very nice to have, however in the context of this discussion we need to remember that every feature added also has a weight penilty; as is said in the backpacking world "Ounces equal pounds" and trust me it adds up in a hurry.....

Karl Kasarda
05-07-2012, 10:02 AM
Keep in mind guys there are indeed lots of features available that can be very nice to have, however in the context of this discussion we need to remember that every feature added also has a weight penilty; as is said in the backpacking world "Ounces equal pounds" and trust me it adds up in a hurry.....

I agree.

Everyone of those things are nice to have on a precision rifle but truly not required.

For the interest of weight, I'd skip almost all of those features, personally.

Your recommendation of a fluted barrel is excellent; that will reduce weight but add rigidity required for the suppressor.

Tengu Joker
05-07-2012, 10:16 AM
If money is no option what about a carbon-fiber barrel? You could run a "heavier" profile and still save weight. They also shed heat faster from what I've heard...

themonk
05-07-2012, 10:47 AM
Keep in mind guys there are indeed lots of features available that can be very nice to have, however in the context of this discussion we need to remember that every feature added also has a weight penilty; as is said in the backpacking world "Ounces equal pounds" and trust me it adds up in a hurry.....

I'm with you. So, I don’t see how we can continue this discussion without some parameters - what caliber? (I would recommend 308). What is the ideal weight? As reference a 308 700 with the super lightweight Axiom stock is 8.5lbs with no glass.

chad newton
05-07-2012, 10:58 AM
I would say it will be something Gabe can make or have made and still make a profit but keep the price low enough that not just 2-3 guys will buy. That automatically rules out a 2000 dollar action and 1000 dollar barrel. He laid out what he wanted, 200 yard head shots and 600 yard body shots. That is pretty easy to do as far as I'm concerned. Pss type rifle with Remington action cut to 18" shooting good ammo. Head shots at 200 can be done with an ak. So super high end stuff just isn't really needed. Remington makes a good barrel, doing handloads my pss is a 1/4 Moa shooter. National match is 1/2 Moa. Military sniper rifle standards is 1 Moa. 1moa will shoot a 10" group at 1000 in a perfect world. I don't think anyone really need to go overboard unless they just like having the bitch gun guy stuff. That's cool, but not needed.

desertdog
05-07-2012, 11:47 AM
Almost any bolt gun will do the 200/600 shots that were originally laid out as the GS standard, as will just about any quality auto in 308. If this is still the goal of this class, any hunting rifle or any .308 AK will do this with good ammo, optics, and shooting fundamentals. Basically, a budget rifle and optic can fill this role, and be ditched if needed without loosing a huge investment. My initial impressions of this concept as was laid out by Gabe, was a reliable semi-auto 30 caliber rifle with detachable magazines, as the GS may be doing just as much fighting at talking distance as he would at sniper distances.

But, it seems as if people are seeking more now. When I read reports or talk to folks that take the GS classes, they talk a great deal about making 1,000 yard shots and about how bitchen peoples groupings were. The majority of folks are now gravitating towards precision bolt guns rather than those laid out in the original concept. Folks that ran the first classes with semi-autos, are now using bolt actions. Its as if this is turning into more of a precision rifle class. Not necessarily a bad thing, as I would load up my TRG-22 and take one if SI offered one, but I hope that the focus of the original concept isn't lost because I really like it.

themonk
05-07-2012, 11:57 AM
Not necessarily a bad thing, as I would load up my TRG-22 and take one if SI offered one, but I hope that the focus of the original concept isn't lost because I really like it.

How do you like the Sako? How far out have you taken it?

fidalgoman
05-07-2012, 12:19 PM
Caliber wise it depends on your intended AO of course. MOUT, open plains, forest? There are a lot of hunting guns around that would be a good start. I'm just quoting others but one does not want to be too close to the enemy to receive accurate return fire, but that depends on AO. You need good hardware true but it takes software to run it. Guns that look like hunting rifles in common calibers do not draw too much unwanted attention. Just looks like another quality deer/elk/antelope rifle. :yup:

jcart
05-07-2012, 12:24 PM
You just described the Steyr Scout/308 - again.
And yes it has the useless folding bi-pod, I know.

jcart
05-07-2012, 12:26 PM
Keep in mind guys there are indeed lots of features available that can be very nice to have, however in the context of this discussion we need to remember that every feature added also has a weight penalty; as is said in the backpacking world "Ounces equal pounds" and trust me it adds up in a hurry.....
Steyr Scout light and easy to handle.
Add a NF 2.5-10x32 and GTG

themonk
05-07-2012, 12:37 PM
You just described the Steyr Scout/308 - again.
And yes it has the useless folding bi-pod, I know.

But it's always stable :lmao:

jcart
05-07-2012, 12:43 PM
But it's always stable :lmao:
I forgot to put useless in ""
I have no problem with mine.

Gabe Suarez
05-07-2012, 02:20 PM
You just described the Steyr Scout/308 - again.
And yes it has the useless folding bi-pod, I know.

I have seen lots of Steyr Scouts in class....and other "scouts". Know what? None of them do very well.

Jeremy
05-07-2012, 02:24 PM
Maybe the rifle that Kifaru tried to develop. It was 4 1/2 pounds (minus glass, IRRC) but I heard the owner axed it because he couldn't get all of the prototype rifles to shoot 1/2 moa. Not sure if thats true or not, but I do remember the price was steep.

themonk
05-07-2012, 03:01 PM
What about a Remington Model 700 SPS Tactical AAC-SD. Its a 308, lightweight (7.3lb), has a 20 inch Heavy Barrel and is threaded. Seems like you could use it as a great starting point to build off of.

desertdog
05-07-2012, 03:13 PM
What about a Remington Model 700 SPS Tactical AAC-SD. Its a 308, lightweight (7.3lb), has a 20 inch Heavy Barrel and is threaded. Seems like you could use it as a great starting point to build off of.

Thats what I was thinking; a 700 SPS barred action with an AICS folding stock. That would be a fine rifle that would come in well below $2k.



PS @ themonk: The Sako is amazing, way better than I am. It is very heavy though for its size. I really wished that I saved a little more and got the folder. I thing that the TRG folders are the best out there.

jcart
05-07-2012, 04:00 PM
I have seen lots of Steyr Scouts in class....and other "scouts". Know what? None of them do very well.
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?96838-Guerilla-Sniper-in-Blakely-GA-by-Scott-Vandiver/page2&highlight=steyr+scout+rifle

Post #13
"It was a real tack driver. The scope (a German fixed 4x with only a ballistically calibrated turret for drop) was probably more of a limit than the gun. Put a good 3-9 with a mil reticle on there and it probably would have been one of the most capable rifles in the class. The downside that the owner mentioned was that the chamber was tight enough to be fussy about ammo, so cheap milsurp for practice was not an option."

Maybe the man behind the rifle has something to do with it.

themonk
05-07-2012, 04:06 PM
PS @ themonk: The Sako is amazing, way better than I am. It is very heavy though for its size. I really wished that I saved a little more and got the folder. I thing that the TRG folders are the best out there.

I’m envious – that is a very nice rifle!

Soren
05-07-2012, 04:15 PM
The Tikka T-3 Scout would fit the bill. 20" med/heavy barrel, good trigger....about $800-850.

fidalgoman
05-07-2012, 04:38 PM
I have seen lots of Steyr Scouts in class....and other "scouts". Know what? None of them do very well.I was thinking of something "similar to" the Marine Corps M-40 but lighter and custom made to your specs.

Sigfan22
05-07-2012, 04:50 PM
How does the folding stock that choate makes for the remington and savage actions fare?

Dave Sauer
05-07-2012, 05:28 PM
A great light weight sniper rifle would double as a great hunting rifle as well.
308
18" 1-10 fluted barrel (Obermyer or Bartlein) with AAC flash hider/supressor mount.
Light weight, built in cheek rest stock like that from Lone Wolf (15 to 22 oz). More durable, lighter and less to go wrong than adjustable cheek rest.
DBM. There is a company making Remington DBM that relics the stock bottom metal with no additional inletting required.
Aluminum rail and NV capable forward rail.
I prefer a two stage trigger. 1.5# first stage, 1.5# second.
Quick release sling cup on the right side for end. The lighter the rifle, the more important sling/support options.
Light weight bolt knob and handle.
Folding stock would be a plus if it didn't add too much weight and locked up tight. But I'd trade the weight gain and potential problems for an Eberlestock X3 to carry it.
SWFA 1-6.

Total package could be built around 6 pounds with glass. Depending on barrel choice, you might get it under 6.

Fess Earl
05-07-2012, 06:28 PM
So lets discuss this. Based on what I saw this last weekend, a good man with a bolt gun can do some very nice work. And almost keep up with a semi auto (almost I said).


What type of rifle was the shooter who inspired this thread using?

Red Ryder
05-07-2012, 06:49 PM
Some advantages of the new Ruger Scout Rifle with a traditionally mounted scope:
already lightweight
has readily available 10 round factory mags
barrel comes threaded with a flash suppressor whose threads match many fine suppressors
Under $800
Accuracy on par with heads at 200 and bodies at 600

BTW, I used a Steyr Scout in a precision rifle course (loaned my son my bigger bolt gun as it was his first time). Scout worked great with 175 Grains and a Vortex Viper scope out to about 700. The instructor would bring others by to see my rifle and group and chastise them saying "his rifle weighs 8 pounds and he is hitting....why can't you with your 15 pound benchrest gun?".

The Steyr Scout is definitely accurate. The big complaint is hard military primers needing a second strike to ignite. Not a problem with modern factory or match ammo in my experience.

Dale Hunter
05-07-2012, 06:55 PM
What about a Remington Model 700 SPS Tactical AAC-SD. Its a 308, lightweight (7.3lb), has a 20 inch Heavy Barrel and is threaded. Seems like you could use it as a great starting point to build off of.

Exactly how my rifle started. See the TSD website for a picture of my stick. It is the epitome of this thread. The only update I'm looking at for it is an AICS folder to cut size.

Dale Hunter
05-07-2012, 07:05 PM
http://tsdcombatsystems.com/sniper-systems/

Link to rifle pictures

Gabe Suarez
05-07-2012, 07:06 PM
What type of rifle was the shooter who inspired this thread using?

Several....mostly Remingtons. Savages are fine, but from what I saw...not nearly as smooth or fast.

charley103
05-07-2012, 07:07 PM
An absolutely stable point of impact. Hot or cold, wet or dry, clean or dirty. 3/4 minute would be excellent, but twice that would get the job done- but the group center needs to be solid as a rock- winter, summer, first shot of the year, all the time.

I would also add quick detach and BUIS to the list.

themonk
05-07-2012, 07:17 PM
Exactly how my rifle started. See the TSD website for a picture of my stick. It is the epitome of this thread. The only update I'm looking at for it is an AICS folder to cut size.

The AICS AX folder is the cats meow!

Gabe Suarez
05-07-2012, 07:36 PM
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?96838-Guerilla-Sniper-in-Blakely-GA-by-Scott-Vandiver/page2&highlight=steyr+scout+rifle.

Probably more a testament to the shooter than the rifle. :tired:

jaba1017
05-07-2012, 08:22 PM
A week or so ago I was looking at a Savage 10FP-SR, 22" threaded bbl, .308 paired with a Leupold VX-R 3-9x with the fire dot that my local gun shop owner put together as a sniper special. He also had the Remington 700 20" SPS .308. Both rifles had their pluses and the price point was about the same.

I like the look and the folding stock option on the XLR Evolution. At about 4lbs I'm not sure how much weight that cuts off the rifle. http://www.xlrindustries.com/evolution.html

http://8541tactical.com/images/XLR/XLR_8012.jpg

chad newton
05-07-2012, 08:41 PM
Savage is also good. I have seen then do some amazing things.

ss58
05-07-2012, 10:15 PM
I have a Sako TRG22 with a 20" holds an AWC Thundertrap can. Has the folding stock with all the adjustments one could want. No problem getting out 1300 yds with 175gr AB. I have two 700 platforms one a 5R but by the time you add bottom metal, trigger job, 4or 5lbs of lead shot to the stock, texture it, thread it, change the bolt handle etc etc you can buy a TRG out of the box that needs nothing (without the folding stock) The Sako is also a very forgiving rifle and the short bolt throw is a pleasure and very fast. I think for the money the best out of the box bolt gun out there...but that's just MHO. As Gabe said it's the shooter...a good spotter don't hurt either.

CaptBeach
05-07-2012, 10:42 PM
Several....mostly Remingtons. Savages are fine, but from what I saw...not nearly as smooth or fast.

Gabe,

I agree...Remington's are butter smooth...AND require a gunsmith to work on...to me...the Guerrilla Sniper MUST be able to perform depot level maintenance on his rifle meaning complete dis-assembly and repair, tuning and if need be rebarreling...the Remington just doesn't lend itself to that for the average shooter...

Savage on the other hand while not as smooth does...actually what you seeing in "lack of smoothness" is the slop the bolt has when out of battery...HOWEVER...with its modular bolt head when the rifles bolt cycles into battery it is as tight as a Remington...one could look at this as a plus...a little slop/play in the action would be more forgiving in a dirty environment or more forgiving of not being cleaned as often as most clean a precision rifle...

As far as your OP goes...if I were building one with weight in mind I'd start with a Savage short action and have the action trued along with the barrel nut and chase the threads. I'd then get a varmint weight barrel chambered in .308 and have it cut at 16" threaded 5/8 x24 and then fluted to further reduce weight and be fitted with an appropriate QD flash suppressor of AAC or YHM manufacture with a suppressor to match. If it had the 3 screw trigger I'd tune it to 2-3 lbs, if not I'd add an SSS trigger. The stock would be a McMillan HTG in carbon fibre to additional save weight and be inletted for a CDI DBM running AICS mags. I'd fore go the bipod in favor of a GS type bag to "support the rifle" and act as a shooting rest. Glass would be a Leopold Mk IV with HD rings in aluminum. I'm betting I could build such a gun well under ten pounds WITH a scope...the 16" tube WILL NOT shoot 1000 reliably but it'll be the cats azz on 200 heads and 600 torsos...

Now... a man who runs OST, TSD and has a bunch of former NASA machinist weenies and heavily accented gun monkeys in some foreign country at his beck and call might decide to do like the high end rifle action makers have done albeit with a Savage instead of 700's and reverse engineer a Ti clone of the Savage short and long action that comes with a trued front end with matched barrel nut and save another pound or two...

Capt Beach

spanky68
05-08-2012, 06:12 AM
Here is a good stock that may meet all the requirements for a remington 700 sniper rifle. Just add an LTR model with the stock 20" barrel and add a flash hider/compensator. This stock comes from Eberlestock. I know Gabe is willing to pay for quality equipment.

http://eberlestock.com/M11%20Stealth%20Rifle%20Chassis.htm

Just add a lightweight scope from Leupold or Vortex and a lightweight Harris bipod.
Hopefully with these additions the weight can be kept near 10lbs complete.:notworthy:

themonk
05-08-2012, 06:34 AM
Here is a good stock that may meet all the requirements for a remington 700 sniper rifle. Just add an LTR model with the stock 20" barrel and add a flash hider/compensator. This stock comes from Eberlestock. I know Gabe is willing to pay for quality equipment.

http://eberlestock.com/M11%20Stealth%20Rifle%20Chassis.htm

Just add a lightweight scope from Leupold or Vortex and a lightweight Harris bipod.
Hopefully with these additions the weight can be kept near 10lbs complete.:notworthy:

I may have missed it but do you know how much the M11 weighs? Great concept.

spanky68
05-08-2012, 06:38 AM
NO it doesn't say anywhere on the site, but look at the video it appears to be quite light.

It's CNC machined aluminium that is coated.

Barker
05-08-2012, 07:19 AM
Tagged for interest. I have been in the market for a lightweight deer rifle and as mentioned earlier...this might kill two birds with one stone so to speak. At least one might evolve into the other...funny how that happens.

desertdog
05-08-2012, 09:48 AM
If looking for a "budget" 700 action to build from, You will not be disappointed with the 700 SPS AAC-SD. This is not the same as the standard 700 SPS. The AAC-SD has a short heavy barrel with a 1:10 twist (rather than the 1:12 twist for the regular SPS), which allows heavier bullets to stabilize better from the short Barrel. The Barrel is factory threaded for standard attachments. Also, the fit in finish is a step above the regular SPS. All of these that I have seen are sub MOA shooters out of the box. But, the Houge stock is not ideal. Luckily, these actions look and fit great in the AICS chassis (which also give them use of top-quality AI detachable magazines). I have seen several local shooters put this combo together in their garage to achieve some nice .5 MOA shooters for less than $1500. Basically, aftermarket support for this barreled action is limitless. But, the downside of building a rifle like this is weight; still much lighter and handier than a military sniper rifle, but not "hunting rifle" light.

CaptBeach
05-08-2012, 10:31 AM
Heres one recipe...

Base rifle: Remington Model 700 Alaskan Ti Bolt-Action Rifle .300 WSM 24" Barrel 3 Rounds Bell & Carlson Carbon Fibre Stock 6lbs

Cut 8 inches off the 24" barrel to 16" thread at 5/8 x 24 = Loss of about 1 lb now at 5lbs

Add AAC or YHM QD Flash Suppressor = add 4 1/4 oz now at 5 1/4lbs

Add Burris Extreme rings, EGW 20MOA Mount = add 4 oz, now at 5 lbs 8oz

Add Leupold Leupold Patrol VX-R 3x9x40 Mil Dot = add 15.3 oz now at 6lbs 7oz

Stay with the 300WSM or re-barrel it to .308 but give up near 300WM performance out of a 6lb 7oz rifle...with a YHM Ti 7.62 Phantom can at 15oz and your at 7lbs 6oz Suppressed...

Add CDI DBM at about 6 oz for the bottom metal and 6 oz for the mag and your still at well under 9lbs

But at what cost? $1800 for the rifle, $1K for the scope, $1100 for the can add rings, rails and QD fs and your at $4250 or so...

Capt Beach

spanky68
05-08-2012, 12:38 PM
and at 7 1/2 lbs it will kick like a mule on every shot, even with a break or can. :yikes:

Wilburt
05-08-2012, 12:42 PM
and at 7 1/2 lbs it will kick like a mule on every shot, even with a break or can. :yikes:

Yeah, there probably should be a balance somewhere. Either you are going all out with super light weight or just a solid medium weight to get the job done.

CaptBeach
05-08-2012, 01:02 PM
and at 7 1/2 lbs it will kick like a mule on every shot, even with a break or can. :yikes:

You have to ask yourself who is the master? Is the recoil mastering the shooter or is the rifleman mastering the rifle? I do realize there is an upper limit to recoil management and accuracy...however the 300WSM is not a 338LM or a 416 Rigsby...

The OP was LIGHT WEIGHT...the 700 Ti is LIGHT WEIGHT, don't like 300WSM swap the barrel out for 308...

I've shot the 300WSM in a 7-8ish lb gun without sights (Savage SA pencil barrel) and it was more than 308 but less than 300WM, more like a 30-06 +P if there was such a thing...definitely NOT brutish...

Only time its going to be an issue is extended practice...hunting or whatever is usually one to two shots...

YARP
05-08-2012, 01:37 PM
and at 7 1/2 lbs it will kick like a mule on every shot, even with a break or can. :yikes:

A 14" barrel with a Rat worx "big chubby" muzzle brake kicks about as much as a .223, total weight of the weapon was 6lbs 4oz with scope......
50rds shot, very little shooter fatigue. Noise is a notch up but not to ridiculous, recoil was at such a minimum that I could keep my eye in the scope.

Test weapon: Savage Striker pistol, the same as the one in there test video. Let me tell you that keeping your eye in the scope when shooting a .308 pistol is near impossible with the muzzle flip, with this brake it was easy.

spanky68
05-08-2012, 03:30 PM
I think I would thoroughly enjoy having a big chubby on the end of my short barrel. :bliss:

CaptBeach
05-08-2012, 03:47 PM
I think I would thoroughly enjoy having a big chubby on the end of my short barrel. :bliss:

At least thats what yer ole lady said... :wink:

spanky68
05-08-2012, 03:50 PM
Gabe

You need to define lightweight as it applies to this sniper rifle design. What is lightweight 10 lbs, 7 or 6 ?

OK I just received a reply from Eberlestock reference the M11 chassis system it is 4lbs in weight.

Does anyone know what the weight of a 20" SPS tacticool barreled action is ?

themonk
05-08-2012, 03:58 PM
Gabe

You need to define lightweight as it applies to this sniper rifle design. What is lightweight 10 lbs, 7 or 6 ?

OK I just received a reply from Eberlestock reference the M11 chassis system it is 4lbs in weight.

Does anyone know what the weight of a 20" SPS tacticool barreled action is ?

A lot of variables but a good number would be 4lbs. Good site for weights for the 700 - http://www.brownprecision.com/SelectingComponents.htm

manco5
05-08-2012, 04:03 PM
Good to 600 and beyond when needed: a light weight tool and larger-ish caliber for barrier penetration. If the ammo does not need to be universally available, try the 6mm, or 6.5 Grendel in the lighter tools with less recoil to spoil aim/hits.?? Hhmmnn
OR maybe 140-157 grain bullets at 2600 fps. in 7.62/308??

spanky68
05-08-2012, 04:04 PM
Thanks Monk

so 4 lbs for the barreled action and and 4lbs for the M11 chassis that's 8 lbs plus a scope.

A leupold L/RT is exactly 1 lb plus rings and base so that's up to 9+ lbs it should end up

right at 9.5 lbs, that's much better than the usual 15-20 lbs sniper rifle.

themonk
05-08-2012, 04:26 PM
Exactly how my rifle started. See the TSD website for a picture of my stick. It is the epitome of this thread. The only update I'm looking at for it is an AICS folder to cut size.

Dale - how much does your gun weigh as a reference?

spanky68
05-08-2012, 04:29 PM
The tactical bolt rifle I use for tactical matches weighs 15 lbs.

CaptBeach
05-08-2012, 06:07 PM
I highly suspect the weights at Brownells are off by a little...the BDL SA is 2lb 4oz, they list the #5 contour (muzzle .700") and 24" at 3lb 5 oz...the SPS is somewhere in the mid .825 to nearly .900 diameter and should be around 7lbs 1oz at 26 inches, using .900 and 26 inches I extrapolate 4.35oz per inch average, SPS barrel at 20 inches should be around 5.45lbs for the barrel alone, add 2.25lbs for the action and your at 7.7lbs for the SPS barreled action with a 20" barrel

Capt Beach

spanky68
05-08-2012, 06:30 PM
So from everything said before a decent long range rifle can be put together that's just about 10 lbs.

It will get the job done well and not cost a truckload of cash. Spend the extra $$$ on match quality ammo

and range time, get good dope and practice from all kinds of hasty unstable positions.

CoryT
05-08-2012, 06:37 PM
My choice was to go basically mid-weight, rather than super light. Surgeon 591 action with 22" fluted light Palma contour, threaded 5/8"x24. McMillan A2 stock, light fill rather than the "sniper fill", fixed LOP at 12.5", short front rail under fore end for bipod mounting (Atlas) flush cups for a TAB Gear sling. 6.5-20 Leupold M5 TMR FFP in Aluminum Badger Ord rings. The standard bottom metal takes 5 and 10 round AI AICS mags, I use the Alpha mags as they are a fair bit shorter. In basic trim that's 10.5 lbs, add the pod and Gemtech Sandstorm and you are at 12, not unreasonable for the capability. Dropping 3" and a contour off the barrel might save 1.5 lbs, and a simple carry strap rather than the TAB sling another .5 or so.

I'm personally pretty happy with a .308/.300wm system between 10 and 13 lbs. While the 6 - 7lb rifle is great to carry, the very thin barrels are not real happy with a can in place and heating can be a real issue with both the zero and throat erosion. If you won't be shooting a lot without cooling time in training, and the suppressor is a non-starter, super light like a Scout with conventional scope should work out just fine.

spanky68
05-08-2012, 07:02 PM
Capt Beach

Krieger lists their remington varmint barrel contour for 26" at 4.5 lbs.

CaptBeach
05-08-2012, 08:37 PM
Capt Beach

Krieger lists their remington varmint barrel contour for 26" at 4.5 lbs.

I was using Shilens...4.5 +2.25 is 6.75lbs for the barreled action alone

docred
05-08-2012, 10:58 PM
Having just done the GS class with a heavy rifle, this thread is super interesting.

I shot the class with a pretty new FN A5M SPR in 308 with a 20 inch barrel. Scope on a high mount requiring use of the riser to have a sight picture and good cheek weld. This set up absolutely was a joy to shoot prone, but weight and height over bore of the scope made it very difficult to keep steady in unconventional positions. Its a heavy rifle, which is great to shoot (recoil was almost nonexistent and no perceptible impact shift with repeated firing) but lousy to take on a hike.

As far as total weight, I would say 7 pounds MAX less optics, ideally closer to 6. Why? Because you can get a semi auto 308 for just a little more weight: '
FN SCAR (8 pounds), LWRC REPR (9.5 pounds), LaRue 308s (7.75-9.5pounds)
So the weight on this purposefully light bolt gun needs to be noticeably less than a semi auto "universal rifle" or really what is point?

A folding stock seems like a great idea - easier to carry in your pack.
AICS looks sexy, but is almost 6 pounds, and seems to run about $1100
The Eberlstock chassis again sexy, light, but its $ two grand. Even as an unmarried physician, I choke at the idea of a two thousand dollar rifle stock.
Manners just came out with folding stocks this year - look really nice, prices starting at $900 and go up quick.
The choate folder seems fantastic - $307 and weighing only 3.5 pounds. But when I was looking at gear for the class I called and they aren't available right now. Also couldn't find any info on detachable mags with that setup.

Any other options? Let me know what you have found.

As far as barrel length... watching the 2010 international sniper comp dvd the spotter on the winning team was running a semi auto 308 with a 16 inch barrel. The last event I think both guys on the team had to shoot to like 800 or 900 meters. no problem. So I think a quality 16.5 inch barrel on my "ultra light-hiking" bolt gun should well outperform me. Having seen some super handy rifles with 18" barrels in the class, I would be stoked to take something like that out in the mountains.

usmc1986
05-09-2012, 05:17 AM
Assuming we are going for the "no compromises, best quality" rifle, we can go with a Remington pattern action like the Surgeon, or a fully blue printed Remington. The stock system that meets the qualifications would be an AICS with the folder, but you can also get there with a custom McMillan with a folder, similar to what they have done with their M14 stocks.

AICS automatically disqualifies the rifle as lightweight. A great chassis system, but you'll still end up near 13lb rifle.

Something like the HS Precision stock, or a Manner's 90% Carbon Fiber stock in a folding config, 16-18" Rem Varmint contour, or med palma and a lower power scope to reduce weight will probably keep the weight lowest.

spanky68
05-09-2012, 06:17 AM
The deisre to have a short barrel of a large enough profile not to heat up and move poi, along with a DBM is going to make a 8lb almost impossible.

You could skip the various chassis systems as they are all too heavy. Try using a McMillan or Manners M40 monte carlo stock. These stocks weigh between 2.5-3lbs and use maybe a 16-20" heavy sporter profile with a Badger DBM.

Checking the online Remington 700 catalog I found the Mountain SS model .308 22" bbl and weighs 6.5 lbs. It just needs a stock change and bottom metal

desertdog
05-09-2012, 10:14 AM
SPS barrel at 20 inches should be around 5.45lbs for the barrel alone, add 2.25lbs for the action and your at 7.7lbs for the SPS barreled action with a 20" barrel

Those numbers are WAY off. A brand new 700 SPS Tactical AAC-SD weighs 7.3# total with stock. The Houge overmolded stock is 3#, so the barreled action is actually around 4.3#. This would make total sense considering that the total weight of my 700 SPS Tactical AAC-SD; with AICS chassis, LaRue rail and rings, empty mag, and Nightforce optic, weighs 12.5#. Heavy for a hunting rifle, but definitely a lightweight sniper rifle considering that the M40A5 and M24A2 weigh in at 16#. This weight seems to be a good balance between portability and having a quality sub-MOA sniper rifle. But as others have pointed out, for just the 200/600 criteria, almost any quality scoped semi-auto 308 will do the job, weigh the same, and be more versatile in different types of engagements.

TFA303
05-09-2012, 10:18 AM
-- 16"-18" MATCH grade barrel #5 Light weight Varmint Flutted with flashhider. Flutting has a few advantages here. weight reduction, increased heat distribution, increased ridgidity. Another option would be a Teludyne barrel.



I was thinking Teludyne, too. Makes a short barrel feasible without adding a lot of weight.

CaptBeach
05-09-2012, 11:47 AM
One could start with this as a base rifle...308 at 5.5lbs Savage 11/111 Lightweight Hunter...LA are 6.0lb WITH a wood stock...

Lets see...loose the wood in favor of Carbon Fibre and loose maybe a pound or two, loose the barrel in favor of a 16" .308 Varmint Fluted or a 14.5 with a welded QD flash suppressor and pick up that pound or two...maybe no net lose or gain...Hmmmm I might have to try that...

Add a CDI DBM with 5 round at 9oz...

21927

Add a McMillan game Scout stock at exactly 2lbs

21928

desertdog
05-09-2012, 12:23 PM
Add a McMillan game Scout stock at exactly 2lbs
21928
Good call, I forgot about that stock. Its a decent piece of gear too.

CaptBeach
05-09-2012, 12:32 PM
Good call, I forgot about that stock. Its a decent piece of gear too.


I just wrote them an email inquiring about the Game Scout (GS, how appropriate LOL) and how much it would reduce the weight from 2lbs currently IF you exercised the Graphite cloth option at $51.00, thier sight boasted 1/2 the weight by using this option...hmmmm we'll see...

They do not sell the 11/111 Lightweight Hunter Action but that doesnt mean one could not emulate the lightening cuts on a standard Savage short action and get the same or better results...

If $$$$ were not an option then a lightened Savage SA, a Carbon Fibre 16" and a Graphite Game Scout could in theory yield some outstanding weight savings for a 308 GS rifle...

Capt Beach

spanky68
05-09-2012, 12:52 PM
I think Gabe wants a remington 700, so try their mountain ss model with the same stock and inletted for a Badger DBM.

CaptBeach
05-09-2012, 01:05 PM
I think Gabe wants a remington 700, so try their mountain ss model with the same stock and inletted for a Badger DBM.

Alright...I'd a dedicated Savage Barrel Nut but here goes...

OK...base rifle M700 Mountain SS 6.5lbs

Bell and Carsons websites says the lightweight stock is 2lbs, swap out a hunting stock for the Game Scout with no net change still 6.5lbs

Add CDI DBM with 5 round mag 9oz now at 7lbs 1oz add 3 oz for 10 round

Add rings and a 20MOA MOA base at 6oz now at 7lbs 7oz

Add a Leupold MK IV 15oz 8lb 6oz

Add a AAC or YHM QD at 4oz 8lb 10oz finished ready to shoot weight...

Dont know the weights but I'm going to assume you swap out the 22" pencil barrel for a 16" Varmint Fluted and see no net change.

Capt Beach

spanky68
05-09-2012, 03:03 PM
Capt Beach

You could always call New UltraLight Arms and order one of those cool 5 lbs .308. Just add scope :dunno: No DBM though

CaptBeach
05-09-2012, 03:18 PM
Capt Beach

You could always call New UltraLight Arms and order one of those cool 5 lbs .308. Just add scope :dunno: No DBM though

For the 12oz difference and $3500 price tag I'll stick with a Savage or Remington and be able to get parts if it ever broke...

Looks like UL Arms uses proprietary receivers...break a spring or a firing pin or have to send it back to get repaired could be costly...

Capt Beach

Wilburt
05-09-2012, 05:26 PM
Surgeon 591 action

I wish... $1292!!!!

spanky68
05-09-2012, 06:58 PM
It will cost almost as much to true up a stock remmy action :lol:

Dale Hunter
05-09-2012, 08:48 PM
Dale - how much does your gun weigh as a reference?

Never bothered to weigh it......Suppose it's around 9 or 10lbs. Feels like an M4 or AK with optic, light, IR laser, etc.

I'll always take a small sacrifice on weight of the gun if it means a more consistent shooter (especially with suppressor mounted). That consistency goes for the gun and my ability to perform behind it. Shoot a featherweight 308 or 300wm in a 2-3 day GS class and tell me how well you could place rounds on day 3 after getting mule kicked hundreds of times.

Greg Nichols
05-09-2012, 09:03 PM
Never bothered to weigh it......Suppose it's around 9 or 10lbs. Feels like an M4 or AK with optic, light, IR laser, etc.

I'll always take a small sacrifice on weight of the gun if it means a more consistent shooter (especially with suppressor mounted). That consistency goes for the gun and my ability to perform behind it. Shoot a featherweight 308 or 300wm in a 2-3 day GS class and tell me how well you could place rounds on day 3 after getting mule kicked hundreds of times.

Amen I have a feather weight Weatherby in 7mm rem mag. running that for 2 days would make me gun-shy for sure

CoryT
05-09-2012, 10:15 PM
I wish... $1292!!!!

By the time you true up the Rem, add a larger recoil lug, drill and tap for 8x40's, add the scope base and fix the bolt handle you'll have spent the same amount. Of course, you can also just buy a factory Savage and get a good scope on it for the same price. It won't be nearly as tough or precise, but treated right it will get the job done, based on the specs outlined at the start of the thread.

It's like buying a WASR or Kreb's Custom AK. Both will do the basic task the AK was designed for, the Kreb's will just do all that and more.

In the end, a real shooter with an old Mauser and iron sights is way ahead of a noob with an AI AW and S&B scope.

gunplumber
05-09-2012, 10:21 PM
I've been playing with this. There is a balance on weight. I've worked on "lightweight" Rem 700s, with fluted bolts, skeletonized stocks, brown precision lightweight stocks. They were made for mountain hunting where only a few shots expected in a hunt. Super light, but brutal to shoot and not good for more than 4-5 rounds before the pencil barrels started to get too hot.


Here's a .30-06. Great hunting rifle. Lightweight. Handled great. Not so much a "sniper".


21947

I've also worked on rifles with barrels as large in diameter as the receiver. Seemed pointless as well. Maybe "general purpose" is a better term, as if weight is the driving force, there are performance factors that will fall in priority.

I put this one in what I'd call"heavy". larger barrel contour. Fluting helped, but not much. Still very heavy. Though not as large as some.

21948

McMillan stocks are nice. But they are heavier than the (inferior, IMO) HSP stock.

A certain amount of weight is beneficial - finding the right balance - that can be tougher.

Here's what I'm playing. Both .308 short actions with factory barrels after blueprinting.

I consider it a medium (26") and "medium-light" (18")

Right now the "med/light" has the factory stock on it. I don't care for injection molded plastic, but I haven't decided where I'm going with it. My purpose was dedicated night shooting and it will have a can on it a well. I may shorten the barrel more to 16".

There are places to shave ounces, but the stock and barrel, closely followed by scope, are the heaviest. The Remington triangle fluted barrel has a good balance between stiffness, weight, and length. Still seems a little too light a barrel profile for me.


21945

21946

I also did this one with a McMillan folding stock. Factory profile 18"

I really like the badger DBM, but it is solid steel and quite heavy. Love to see it in aluminum. And while I use a 10rd on the AI stock, on the no biopd one, I prefer the 5 rd mag - trimmer profile.

CaptBeach
05-10-2012, 07:46 AM
Very nice, well thought out sticks... :thumbsup:




I've been playing with this. There is a balance on weight. I've worked on "lightweight" Rem 700s, with fluted bolts, skeletonized stocks, brown precision lightweight stocks. They were made for mountain hunting where only a few shots expected in a hunt. Super light, but brutal to shoot and not good for more than 4-5 rounds before the pencil barrels started to get too hot.


Here's a .30-06. Great hunting rifle. Lightweight. Handled great. Not so much a "sniper".


21947

I've also worked on rifles with barrels as large in diameter as the receiver. Seemed pointless as well. Maybe "general purpose" is a better term, as if weight is the driving force, there are performance factors that will fall in priority.

I put this one in what I'd call"heavy". larger barrel contour. Fluting helped, but not much. Still very heavy. Though not as large as some.

21948

McMillan stocks are nice. But they are heavier than the (inferior, IMO) HSP stock.

A certain amount of weight is beneficial - finding the right balance - that can be tougher.

Here's what I'm playing. Both .308 short actions with factory barrels after blueprinting.

I consider it a medium (26") and "medium-light" (18")

Right now the "med/light" has the factory stock on it. I don't care for injection molded plastic, but I haven't decided where I'm going with it. My purpose was dedicated night shooting and it will have a can on it a well. I may shorten the barrel more to 16".

There are places to shave ounces, but the stock and barrel, closely followed by scope, are the heaviest. The Remington triangle fluted barrel has a good balance between stiffness, weight, and length. Still seems a little too light a barrel profile for me.


21945

21946

I also did this one with a McMillan folding stock. Factory profile 18"

I really like the badger DBM, but it is solid steel and quite heavy. Love to see it in aluminum. And while I use a 10rd on the AI stock, on the no biopd one, I prefer the 5 rd mag - trimmer profile.

docred
05-11-2012, 07:26 PM
anybody have any experiences with or know the weight of a mcree precision folding stock?

spanky68
05-12-2012, 09:18 AM
yes heavy a shit, they weren't designed with lightweight in mind.

spanky68
05-12-2012, 04:39 PM
here is a winner combination rom GA precision

http://www.gaprecision.net/ga-precision-2012-custom-rifles/ga-precision-gladius.html

the gladius

docred
05-12-2012, 08:33 PM
yes heavy a shit, they weren't designed with lightweight in mind.

you know how much?

spanky68
05-12-2012, 09:56 PM
5-7lbs depending on which accessories you get, the folding stock is heavier than the fixed

spanky68
05-15-2012, 03:22 PM
Lothar walther has ultra light barrels now :hail:


Ultra-Lightweight Barrels
Finally, a super light weight barrel that is stabile during prolonged firing that does not involve carbon fiber, epoxy binders or any other heat retaining mediums. Beginning as an LW50 stainless blank, the barrel is precision machined to remove all excess weight. An outer casing of light weight alloys is machined and the two are fitted together. The two parts become one without the use of any adhesive elements. The end result is a perfect barrel for varmint and tactical uses that can be carried for long distances and stand up to heavy firing. The barrel will come complete with chamber, crown, breech threads and is fluted.

With a shank diameter of 1.200” (except Savage versions) and a muzzle diameter of 0.850” this barrel will fill the needs of the varmint hunter and the tactical marksman. Unlike solid steel barrels, this barrel sheds heat fast. VERY FAST! Therefore, long days at the dog towns do not wear the barrel so fast. This barrel weighs less than half of what a standard varmint barrel of the same size weighs.

Contact (http://www.lothar-walther.com/310.php) us for information on how you can order one of these barrels. This program includes the services of a specialist that is trained in building guns with these barrels. All calibres are available from .22l.r. to .338.

Below you can see an example of such a barrel, which is for calibre 50BMG.

spanky68
05-15-2012, 03:35 PM
A standard remington varmint barrel contour weighs 6 lbs or so and Lothar Walther claims there ultralightweight is less than half that at >3lbs :love:

spanky68
05-18-2012, 07:33 AM
OK doing my homework, I talked to Lothar Walther, their ultra lightweight barrel at 20" will be @ 2 lbs, so with a McMillan or Manners light weight stock I believe a tactical rifle can be made to be about 8-8.5 lbs WITH SCOPE.

The Manners stocks are available with a Badger DBM mini chassis made of aluminum and takes the proven AI 10 and 5 rounds mags. The Manners T stock a M40 clone with 90% carbon fiber option will make a stock @ 2.25 lbs with the mini chassis.

or you can go with the McMillan Edge and the M40 HTG

CaptBeach
05-18-2012, 07:37 AM
OK doing my homework, I talked to Lothar Walther, their ultra lightweight barrel at 20" will be @ 2 lbs, so with a McMillan or Manners light weight stock I believe a tactical rifle can be made to be about 8-8.5 lbs WITH SCOPE.

The Manners stocks are available with a Badger DBM mini chassis made of aluminum and takes the proven AI 10 and 5 rounds mags. The Manners T stock a M40 clone with 90% carbon fiber option will make a stock @ 2.25 lbs with the mini chassis.

or you can go with the McMillan Edge and the M40 HTG



What was the barrel profile on that L-W barrel? So using 20" and 2 lbs that might mean a 25-26" 300WM or 300WSM barrel would weight 2.5lbs? They need that extra barrel length to burn powder unlike the 308...now your talking past a 1000yds to a mile with a lightweight gun..

CaptBeach
05-18-2012, 07:45 AM
So...lets Franken-gun a lightweight...

Savage 11 LW as a base gun at 5.5lbs, lose the stock and barrel. Action at 25ounces. 1lb 9oz

Add a McMillan Edge Game Scout/M40/HTG at 30 or so ounces. 1lb 14oz

Add a Lothar Walther 20" barrel at 2lbs. 2lb

Add a EGW 20MOA rail and Xtreme rings at 6 ounces.

Add a Leupold MK IV at 1lb 4 oz.

Doing the math I come up with 7.0625 lbs with a little tweaking maybe sub 7 pound gun SCOPED AND READY TO FIELD. Add a CDI DBM, a 10 round mag and 10 rounds an your still under 8lbs

Again...no bipod...use a bag as a rest.

I've heard the Remington M700TI action weighs 19oz...that's a 6.25lb gun with the above components...albeit that extra 1/2 pound comes at a hefty price tag...

CaptBeach
05-18-2012, 08:20 AM
An extra 2-3-5 lbs means more water, more food, more ammo and more snivel...

ss58
05-18-2012, 09:13 AM
If the criteria is 200-600 here is a set-up under 8lbs all in with CompML3 2moa and A.R.M.S. 17 for under $1500 :dunno: I have Aimpoint's on this rifle and a SOCOMII and have no problem hitting 10" steel at 600 sitting or off a ruck. Just say'in
22135

Ruger Scout Rifle 308Win

Sam

CaptBeach
05-18-2012, 09:47 AM
Nice rig...Whats your ZERO? 100yds? Or do you hold over 8'-96" to hit steel? Or do you set a different ZERO?




If the criteria is 200-600 here is a set-up under 8lbs all in with CompML3 2moa and A.R.M.S. 17 for under $1500 :dunno: I have Aimpoint's on this rifle and a SOCOMII and have no problem hitting 10" steel at 600 sitting or off a ruck. Just say'in
22135

Ruger Scout Rifle 308Win

Sam

Coolhand77
05-18-2012, 11:47 AM
Okay, time for me to chime in...been gone a while. Currently whipping up an AR 308, 18" barrel for just this purpose. Need to weigh it after I get the bolt and other acutraments on it, but its HELLA lighter than the old HK91A3, and will probably kick less than the match 03A3 lightweight that its supposed to be superceding. Now if that Rainier barrel does as advertised, and I can match the group size of the 03A3, I think it will have been a successful experiment/upgrade...damn expensive though, even parting it together.

ss58
05-18-2012, 11:53 AM
Sorry didn't see the response. You seem to have done some LR shooting so are you just trying to be a wiseass?? Holdover with 175gr AB would be about 48" over targets head for a com hit. As I said in an earlier post my first choice is my 20" TRG w/folding stock and NF but not everone has that kinda cash for a rifle and all my LR rifles even my Remmy5R come in between 11-14lbs. I have contemplated switching my Aimpoint over to a Trijicon Accupoint...but I practice with the AP's and I guess that's what it's all about right Capt.???? Doesn't really matter what rig you have if you can't shoot it. I was trying to offer up a lightweight sub $1500.00 rig, sorry if you can't hit man size targets with a red dot at 600. Practice more.

22140
22141

Respectfully,

Sam

spanky68
05-18-2012, 11:58 AM
I'm not a fan of the ruger scout the main problem being the expensive hard to find mags they should of went with AI mags, like any decent mag fed bolt gun. The bolt lift feels like shit, the iron sights sucks ass and the forward mount scope is good for only snap shooting. IF I was to get one I would mount a scope in the conventional location, with a low power scope, anyone can snap shoot and do everything better than a "scout".

I think a remington is overall a better choice for this lightweight rifle.

CaptBeach
05-18-2012, 12:23 PM
Sorry didn't see the response. You seem to have done some LR shooting so are you just trying to be a wiseass?? Holdover with 175gr AB would be about 48" over targets head for a com hit. As I said in an earlier post my first choice is my 20" TRG w/folding stock and NF but not everone has that kinda cash for a rifle and all my LR rifles even my Remmy5R come in between 11-14lbs. I have contemplated switching my Aimpoint over to a Trijicon Accupoint...but I practice with the AP's and I guess that's what it's all about right Capt.???? Doesn't really matter what rig you have if you can't shoot it. I was trying to offer up a lightweight sub $1500.00 rig, sorry if you can't hit man size targets with a red dot at 600. Practice more.

22140
22141

Respectfully,

Sam

I dont mean to come off as a smart ass...its just that the math is the math,,,I was wrong...for a 175gr SMK at 2700FPS with a 100yd zero its not 96" or 8' its really -94.9" at 600 yards...I used 96" or 8' on my range card as a round up...I know what 4' looks like...just double it...or dial in 15.1MOA UP

Go to the bottom of this page...hit CALCULATE...I've plugged in ZERO WIND...http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

Riz58
05-18-2012, 12:34 PM
Not an expert, but I am curious: What about the 6.8 SPC round? From my reading of the ballistics, it fits the 200yd/600yd profile well. I know it can be obtained on an AR platform with a 16" barrel (understanding Stoner systems are not preferred here), and I have seen bolt guns advertised in the cartridge. If the round was designed by and for Special Forces as an improvement on the 223, I would assume they are very weight conscious as well.

spanky68
05-18-2012, 06:52 PM
I'm begining to think simpler is better and everyone will be much better off just buying a SPS tactical with 20" barrel and replace the crappy stock with your favorite McMillan or Manners with a Badger DBM and a decent Leupold scope and be done with it. nothing fancy just works great. :happy:

Gary Hartzell
05-18-2012, 08:08 PM
I think we have gone down a few bunny trails here.
The idea is to come up with rifle for the GS that will make 200 yard shots into the noggin and 600 shots COM. For that we do not need things like a 20 Deg MOA base. Nor do we need a super expensive barrel or a uber stock.
It can be done 600 with off the shelf components. It can be done without switching stocks to get lighter. It can be done on a decent budget.

My choice would be a Stock Rem model 7 with Luepold Scope rings and bases]> Bed it tune the trigger and you are GTG. While a DBM would be nice it is not necessary. I can redo the sling swivels with something else if I needed or wanted to but I don’t see it as being necessary. Same with a bipod. I watched a really good shooter in a Suarez class his name was Sua Sponte. He was using a Savage with a 20” barrel and Nikon glass. Shot next to him for 2 days and never saw the bipod get used. No other fancy toys and he was engaging out past with no issues what so ever.
Maybe we should think about taking all this other money we can dump into gadgets and gear and betyer rifles and buy ammo and practice and learn the gun?

Dave Sauer
05-18-2012, 09:04 PM
I think we have gone down a few bunny trails here.
The idea is to come up with rifle for the GS that will make 200 yard shots into the noggin and 600 shots COM. For that we do not need things like a 20 Deg MOA base. Nor do we need a super expensive barrel or a uber stock.
It can be done 600 with off the shelf components. It can be done without switching stocks to get lighter. It can be done on a decent budget.

My choice would be a Stock Rem model 7 with Luepold Scope rings and bases]> Bed it tune the trigger and you are GTG. While a DBM would be nice it is not necessary. I can redo the sling swivels with something else if I needed or wanted to but I donít see it as being necessary. Same with a bipod. I watched a really good shooter in a Suarez class his name was Sua Sponte. He was using a Savage with a 20Ē barrel and Nikon glass. Shot next to him for 2 days and never saw the bipod get used. No other fancy toys and he was engaging out past with no issues what so ever.
Maybe we should think about taking all this other money we can dump into gadgets and gear and betyer rifles and buy ammo and practice and learn the gun?

Gary, if getting by with the least spent is the goal, then the Savage would be a wise choice. But that takes a lot of the fun out of scheming and dreaming and putting together one's idea of their ultimate go to gun. Sure, whatever one decides on they need to put in the work to bring their skill up the capability of the gun, that is a given. One does not necessarily negate the other if one has the resources and has chosen well. So if I can afford to practice with a $5,000 dollar rifle as well as $700, why not?

The study of the rifle is a funny thing. It often does not take long for us type A types to want to push the limits of our selves and our gear to the point we quickly reach the limits of a gun we started out happy to "get by" with. Our smile at 600 may start to frown at 800. A few teasing hits at 1,000 keep us trying. Meanwhile, if there is someone shooting next to us with a smile while we're frowning, we don't like it. Still smiling, the guy lets us try and we hit with his gun. And we hit again, and again! We have discovered the limits of our gear and now we want to fix it. Now we need a better scope, and better trigger, and better barrel, and a better stock, and better ammo. Yes, we need it and we won't be happy until we've satisfied our quest, because we are human and we are men and we were meant to realize the full potential of our creation and we can't do it without that better gear! Yes!

That's right my lovely wife, God made me this way. He would not have planted the desire for perfection in my heart if he did not mean for me to have you and to have this rifle!

And that's how it is. So men, kiss your wives and go get that rifle!

Gary Hartzell
05-18-2012, 09:20 PM
Trust me I have a ton of nice rifles.

I just think we were getting into the area of diminishing returns. Remember the original criteria was heads 200 chests 600. I can do that with rack rifles.

Now since I can get the accuracy from a number of rifles (and trust me I have a bunch of Savage rifles) I can pu tmoney into bette optics. having the barrel fluted to lighten it. Thread it. get a can. All things that are money better spent than a Lilja or Lothar walther barrel IMHO.

Now if the bad guy thinks he has good cover I can always break out this.

22149

It shoots these.

http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr198/bacon5actual/th_IMG00031-20100207-1857.jpg

Dr. Keith Seto
05-18-2012, 11:52 PM
Not an expert, but I am curious: What about the 6.8 SPC round? From my reading of the ballistics, it fits the 200yd/600yd profile well. I know it can be obtained on an AR platform with a 16" barrel (understanding Stoner systems are not preferred here), and I have seen bolt guns advertised in the cartridge. If the round was designed by and for Special Forces as an improvement on the 223, I would assume they are very weight conscious as well.

I think the 6.5 Grendel has a better profile than the 6.8 SPC at extended ranges. IIRC there was some talk recently about AKs being chambered in 6.5 Grendel, and a believe a few rifles were done as proof of concept, but nothing on a grand scale.

Dave Sauer
05-19-2012, 12:00 AM
Not an expert, but I am curious: What about the 6.8 SPC round? From my reading of the ballistics, it fits the 200yd/600yd profile well. I know it can be obtained on an AR platform with a 16" barrel (understanding Stoner systems are not preferred here), and I have seen bolt guns advertised in the cartridge. If the round was designed by and for Special Forces as an improvement on the 223, I would assume they are very weight conscious as well.

Another one to look into for the AR platform is the 300 Blackout, formerly the 300 Whisper. Can be loaded to approach or exceed the ballistics of the 7.62x39 and all you have to do is change out the AR barrel. Based on the 5.56 case, it uses the standard AR mags and BCG. Can be load with heavier, subsonic rounds to make perfect hog hunting gun...just add can and NV.

CaptBeach
05-19-2012, 07:35 AM
Another one to look into for the AR platform is the 300 Blackout, formerly the 300 Whisper. Can be loaded to approach or exceed the ballistics of the 7.62x39 and all you have to do is change out the AR barrel. Based on the 5.56 case, it uses the standard AR mags and BCG. Can be load with heavier, subsonic rounds to make perfect hog hunting gun...just add can and NV.

I love the 300BLK but it is NOT a GS round...ballistics manageable inside 300 but comparable to that of a mortar round at 600 using 150 (2023FPS) or 175 (1700fps) Sierra MK BTHP's...you are at the ragged edge of some scopes limit of elevation...220" and 265" of elevation needs to be cranked in at this distance...holdovers are out of the question.

As far as 20MOA rails goes, they are the same cost, weight and nearly identical dimensions (other than wedge) of a 0MOA rail...its simply a way of getting that long (well over 600) shot you might need to make with the GS rifle that you couldn't make without the added 20MOA elevation that rail brings to the table...

OP was LIGHT...$$$$ was not mentioned but there is a line of diminishing returns Ti actions vs cm or ss at 3 times the cost...

This was simply an exercise in finding the idea LIGHT GS rifle...I love the AR platform but many argue (I'm NOT one of them) that the 5.56 doesn't fill the role and wildcats, yes you can still call them that 6.5 and 6.8 wont be found in Joes Country Sporting goods or even on a Walmart shelf...chances are 308 will be.

On the 5.56mm role...a tuned well built AR DMR (not an M4) WILL KNOCK YOU DICK STIFF at 200 in the noggin and put you OUT OF THE BATTLE or dead at 600 with a torso shot...lets remember the 77gr SMK at 200 yards still retains TWICE the energy of a 115gr 9mm POINT BLANK (1100ftlbs vs 511 ftlbs) and at 600 yards the 5.56 is just shy of having 9mm point blank energy levels...so to me if you can shrug off getting hit with over twice the point blank energy of a 9mm at 200 yards IN THE HEAD or nearly PB at 600 on your upper body... then oh well... ...at my house the properly set up AR15 in 5.56mm does fit the GS role, small, lightweight, accurate and with heavier loads 77-80 grain buck a wind fairly well, not as good as a .308 but entirely manageable in most cases. Its also capable of being broken down into two small components and stashed in a gray man bag very easily. EVEN MORE GS?

Even AR10 platforms are pushing the 10lb threshold w/o scope or mags...and at some loss of potential accuracy when compared to tuned bolt guns...

If you factor out the heavy barrels stiffness and cooling capability and limit yourself to cold bore shots and a follow up or two then rapidly scoot/exfil the AO the Savage 11LW with its 5.5lb weight could be pared down to 5lbs or a little under with a stock swap to a Manners Carbon M40 or McMillan Edge HTG and then add 1lb 10oz for Leupold MKIV Mil/Mil, 20MOA rail and Burris X-treme rings...internal mags hold 4-5 rounds which should be fine or add some weight with a DBM set up...again...I see no need or use for the added weight of a bipod.

The Remington Alaskan Lightweight offers near identical potential, perhaps even an oz or few less...a tuned up Model 7 Remmy would def work too...

ballistic_ken
05-19-2012, 10:35 AM
I have worked on this type of project off and on for a long time, always ending up not liking the results because the rifle ended up being too heavy.

I started again a few months ago when I found an older Remington 700 (1971 vintage) crammed into a cheezy youth stock.

It now sits in a Hogue, has a floorplate extension (holds 7 + 1).

It weighs in @ 8.6# loaded w/ optic. I am waiting on the XS BUIS mount to finish it up. The XS is a 2 piece base system. I called XS but there was no demand for a Remington 700 1 piece base with BUIS. Ah well.
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/514/floorplate004.jpg

CaptBeach
05-19-2012, 06:20 PM
Ballistic Ken...

Who makes that floor plate extension? Very nice...

ballistic_ken
05-19-2012, 08:18 PM
Ballistic Ken...

Who makes that floor plate extension? Very nice...

I got it from Midway, it's only $20.00 so I decided to give it a try.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/818519/tactical-component-mfg-mag-xtender-extended-floorplate-remington-700-short-action-polymer-black?productnumber=818519

It seems good so far, but I am not 100% sold on the item yet, I need to field test it first.

ballistic_ken
05-19-2012, 08:25 PM
Oh and the bbl is a 22" standard contour. The optic is a Weaver Grand Slam Tactical. I got the stock for 20.00 used. It has the cut for a heavy bbl but will do until I can find a cheap desert ghille color hogue w/ standard bbl cut. I'm trying to keep it cheap.

ss58
05-20-2012, 06:28 AM
I dont mean to come off as a smart ass...its just that the math is the math,,,I was wrong...for a 175gr SMK at 2700FPS with a 100yd zero its not 96" or 8' its really -94.9" at 600 yards...I used 96" or 8' on my range card as a round up...I know what 4' looks like...just double it...or dial in 15.1MOA UP

Go to the bottom of this page...hit CALCULATE...I've plugged in ZERO WIND...http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

Capt. I did think you were being a smartass. I really didn't think that a 600yd shot with a red dot would get into a ballistics discussion...we aren't talking about 2500yds here. As said in a newer post since I just logged on...most of us who shoot LR can make a 200yd head and 600chest with a rack rifle. Hell I have an Enfield that will do it all day with just irons.

Anyway, I will make sure that we are using the same "language" and I also was off by maybe 12" off the top of my head. First, my zero is 25yds so the bullet will be point blank at 250yds. You're not getting 2700fps with that barrel length 16.5" it's more like 2500fps. So it might be as much as 5ft over the targets head not 4.

I paid 700.00 for that rifle new and for what it is I think it's a great rifle, very capable at the ranges 2-600. I find it funny as a guy who put a Wilson in my safe to carry a Glock that a light, short and inexpensive rifle gets so much crap around here. I haven't owned ANY Remmy that didn't need a trigger job for getting out to 1000+.

So I took you're "nice rig" as a wiseass answer and if it was not intended that way I apologize for being one. Have a good one.

Respectfully,

Sam

CaptBeach
05-20-2012, 09:20 AM
NO actually I am a big fan of the Ruger Scout...and the use of the Comp ML was an attention getter...hadn't though of its use on that platform...so when I said nice rig...I meant it...would love to have one in my safe...

I'll stick with my math you stick with yours... :thumbsup:

CoryT
05-21-2012, 09:40 AM
The 6.5G would be a pretty good option, much better ballistics than the 6.8. My Grendel setup weighs in at 10lbs with a long rail tube to mount night vision. Quite good to 800+ with an 18" barrel. The downside is finding ammo on the shelf. The upside is a simple conversion of an existing AR. Even then, it won't be as cheap as a bolt gun, but it's not silly expensive either.

gunplumber
05-21-2012, 09:46 AM
Shouldn't being able to feed the rifle, and thus the commonality of the caliber be a consideration?

It makes no sense to me to buy any firearm for survival & preparedness/TEOTWAWI and have it in a caliber that is uncommon.

Sure - for hunting/recreation/sport, any caliber you want.

But I don't think I'll be finding .257 Wby or .25-3000 Savage at the local swap meet - neither the 6.5g or 6.8.

CoryT
05-21-2012, 11:03 AM
Ammo availability is a concern of course, depending on exactly how the problem manifests itself.

If you somehow forsee wandering over a large area, with no home base / point of resupply, engaging enough to deplete a basic combat loadout repeatedly, but stores still exist where you can buy more ammo, you'll have to explain it to me, because I can't envision it.

If it is indeed TEOTWAWKI, stores are stripped bare. If forced to wander far from base, with no chance of return, I don't see that you want to get into a lot of fights. If you DO get into a big fight, shoot up 300+ rounds and win, you end up replacing your first choice gun with whatever the bad guys brought along, which was going to happen at some point anyway, since all the stores are still gone.

If you are part of a force of G's, then you want something that fits in with the rest of the force and however they get supplies. In the US, that would be an AR in 5.56 or a Rem 700 in .308, if you expect the equipment of the OPFOR to be the current US inventory. If you expect an invasion, then plan for an AK in 7.62x39. In either event, if you have any gun at all, or some skill, you can always aquire one of whatever the OPFOR does in fact have and work from there.

Otherwise, a resonable stockpile of ammo for the chosen gun will end up being fine, one way or another.

gunplumber
05-21-2012, 11:31 AM
I'm contemplating a barter system where a widget that runs of a AA battery will be worth more than the same widget running of a proprietary battery.

And a .38 special worth far more in the new economy than a .32-20 WCF. A .223 or .308 worth more than 6.5. Doesn't matter how superior a cartridge may be if you can't get it. Perfectly rational for a recreational or hunting caliber. Maybe not so wise for a militarily significant rifle that may end up in the hands of your great-grandchildren.

Will any such post-apocalyptic event ever happen? Probably not. So you will probably never be using a sniper rifle. But that we are discussing a sniper rifle, we tacitly accept a scenario where we might actually use it. You can't put the two in isolation - denying the likelihood of a breakdown in society while arguing over the relative merits of a weapon for such scenario.

In principle I try to avoid survival/preparedness gear that has a highly-restricted supply line.

70 years from now, my great-grandchildren may be in the same boat I was in when I got a Win 86 in .33 WCF from my great grandfather. Cool gun - can't shoot it. Ammo is too hard to find. It has no value other than the artistic - hanging on the wall as decoration.

CoryT
05-21-2012, 02:07 PM
Interesting mental exercise. Presuming we do go to barter, that .32-20 WCF you squirrled away could be quite valuable, if you knew someone who needed it. That and even one box of shells could get you quite a bit I'd imagine. I've got boxes of stuff that fits all sorts of guns I've never even owned, ballistic wampum don't you know. this is only tangently related to the subject, but as you say, it's something to consider.

It's not so much I deny the breakdown, just the nature of the aftermath and what would account for a reasonable access to ammo. My expectation is that if one had say, 2000 rounds, you would be hard pressed to use it all. Even if you only had what you could carry, 500 rounds would likely to be more than you could actually USE. If you pickup your cases, and you should, reloading makes for an even longer lasting supply.

Of course, I've got .308's and 5.56's and 7.62x39's and ammo to supply them for many years to come, so to me it's not that big an issue. I'm way to old to be running off into the woods, so if my already remote location is not remote enough, well, I had a pretty good run of it all in all. When the economy finishes it's slide into the abyss, I'll be content to stay here in Trapp's Freehold.

If you are in the city, or even the 'burbs and must run with what you can carry, then wide availability has some advantages, depending on what you can carry and where you are going.

gunplumber
05-21-2012, 02:14 PM
As a businessman, I don't like items like t-shirts where I need inventory 7 sizes and multiple colors to satisfy one customer. I prefer items where a minimal variety of inventory will satisfy the widest base possible. That's why I suspended a lot of my services and options. I had a large chunk of my equipment and inventory tied up for less than 5% of my customers. Now I apply 100% of my equipment and inventory to 95% of my customer base. I am not chasing the one guy who is looking for .32-20. Not when I can have 100 guys happy with .223 or 1000 guys happy with .22LR.

But that's just my philosophy. There are those who specialize in rare and hard to find stuff - If there is a collapse, I don't see mail-ordering off the internet as a likely method of commerce.

Vanilla ice cream. Not as exciting as Rocky Road or Jamocha Almond Fudge, but most people will still enjoy it.

ballistic_ken
05-21-2012, 04:58 PM
XS sights came in.:cool:

The rear base with the ghost ring looks awesome, and it looks like my scope and rings will go on with minimum drama.

I really wish XS would include the front base though, I'd have paid an extra couple bucks........:angry:

Riz58
05-21-2012, 10:52 PM
Well now you guys have gone and done it! After mulling over these posts, reading tons of background material, considering the environment where I live (rural/small town urban), and ammo availability factors, I purchased a FNAR. 1 MOA or less out of the box, meets the 200 yd head shot, 600 yd body shot easily. Decent knock-down round, ammo very available, and can serve as a battle rifle or a hunting rifle.

Not truly battle-tested like the FAL, but the system has been around a very long time and has proven to work well. Now, what optics to put on the thing?

ballistic_ken
05-22-2012, 05:43 PM
I got the XS BUIS installed:

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1541/xssightsmounted001.jpg

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9199/xssightsmounted002.jpg

The front sight test post:
http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8936/xssightsmounted003.jpg

I will need to order the Burris Xtreme Tactical Med Rings (From OST, of course). the low ones I have won't work.

At least now I can start shooting, sighting in the Ghost Ring while waiting to order new rings.

CaptBeach
05-28-2012, 08:42 AM
OK...just found another source for Ti actions...email sent as to pricing...9.24 oz for the SA and 10.4oz for the LA...both are over a pound less than their steel counter parts...

OK lets say...

Action and Bolt 16 oz
20MOA Rail and Rings 6oz
Lothar Walther UL barrel 32oz
McMillan Game Scout with Edge technology 30oz
Leupold MKIV 22oz
CDI DBM with 10rd AICS mag 12oz


7.5lbs with a DBM or 6.75 w/o


http://www.x-tremeshooting.com/index.php?page=X-Treme%20Ti

22320

ballistic_ken
06-01-2012, 04:30 PM
Those Ti actions look sweet, I am afraid to look at prices.

I did get a bigger bolt handle from KRG installed. It slips over the existing bolt handle and screws on.
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3379/boltmodification006.jpg

Liberty9
06-02-2012, 12:01 AM
This subject has been in my head for quite a while, without coming to any rock solid conclusions. But to give you some food for thought, go here >> http://www.ershawbarrels.com/e-r-shaw-custom-barrels.php

Snowman45
06-02-2012, 07:12 PM
Well, I got into this one a little late....just found it. I know there are a lot of Remington 700 fans here, and I like them, too. However, while the rest of my team used 700s and M-21s, my rifle is a FN PBR, 18" HB. As I said in one of the earlier threads, 18" barrels are about optimum for 168 gr. Gold Match BTHP. Mine would shoot with the Remington 700s and easily out-group the M-21s. I prefer the Winchester 70 action of the FN PBR for several reasons. First, the three position safety. Second, the detachable magazine (although you can get them on a Remington). Third, the fixed ejector (which I believe to be far superior to the Remington system). Fourth, the claw extractor (which, again, beats the Hell out of the Remington stock washer-spring type). Further, I think the price is at least comparable to the Remington. Sub MOA groups have never been a problem for that rifle. Further, for our urban SWAT applications, the shorter barreled rifle is quite acceptable.

immerfrei
06-24-2012, 05:44 PM
I did some checking on my lighter weight sniper rig.

. FN Police Bolt Rifle 308 (Mauser action), with fluted 20" barrel with 20 moa rail, Vortex Flash hider, 2.5 pound stock trigger, with badger base and 5 round empty AI mag 6#
. Hogue overmolded stock 3#
. Leupold Mk4 3.5x10 illuminated M3 with Nightforce aluminum rings 1.5#
. Buttstock pouch with cut up knee pad inserted to raise line of site .5#

Total weight of combination is 11# With a 10 round AI (empty) mag it would rise to 11.25#

This rifle combination was able to consistently hit a manhole cover at 1150 yards with Fed Match 168 grain; lying prone with Harris bipod.

I can lighten the rifle .9# by spending $525 on a Manner MCS T stock.

So.....is it worth $525 to save a pound??

For comparison sake:

DPMS AR308, A1 stock, Fulton Armory spiral fluted 20" M110 barrel, Vortex flash hider, backup sites, 20 round empty Magpul magazine, same Leupy Mk4 3.5x10 scope and rings, Geissel SSA trigger. This rifle could also hit the 1150 yard man hole cover but not as consistently as the bolt. The trigger on the bolt was much better and the DPMS at the time, had a 3x9 Leupold scope which we had to use mildot hold overs because we ran out of room on the dial. There is no 20 MOA on the flatrail of the DPMS. So would have to find a 20 moa rail to put on top, which would add a little weight.

Total weight DPMS AR308 11.25 pounds (with 20 round empty mag)
Total weight FN sniper 11.25 pounds (with 10 round empty mag)

desertdog
06-25-2012, 10:30 AM
This thread inspired me so much, that I am in the process of building a new "light sniper/hunting" rifle, using many of the ideas floated around in this thread. My goal is not only to have a light, handy, accurate rifle for moderate ranges, but to have a quality build at a reasonable price. Here is my build sheet:

1) I ordered the McMillin Game Scout stock (will ship in late July) in Desert camo. ($510)
2) Rem 700 action with a 17" varmint contour barrel threaded 5/8x24, 1 in 10. I already fired this and it shoots sub MOA as is. (its a 700 tactical SPS AAC barreled action cut down and re-crowned/threaded) ($580)
3) Timney 510 trigger ($90)
4) AAC blackout 51 tooth attachment (for can attachment at later date). ($85)
5) Lightweight Seekins base and rings. ($200)
6) Aluminum Badger Ordinance bottom metal. ($320)
7) scope and metal will be painted Cerakote coyote tan.(already have)
8) Have not decided on an optic yet, but will go light with lower magnification.

So, I'm looking at a kick ass lightweight sniper/hunter at under $1,800 with minimal gunsmithing required. I will post pics, weight, range report in about a month or so. My current sniper rifles are in the 15+ Lb range, so this will be interesting for me.

immerfrei
06-25-2012, 09:16 PM
One thing I noticed shooting out to 1150 yards. The scope and trigger are EVERYTHING. My 3x9 leupy was not nearly as good as my Mk4 3.5x10...that extra clear 1x REALLY helped when looking for torso sized targets that were painted green/camo. I would imagine that 2x12x would even be better (IOR). Most of the guys in my class had Nightforces that went up to 15x. Those NF's are very heavy.

The other thing I discovered is that zero stop is way cool. My Leupy M3 had it. One guy spent an hour trying to figure out if his kid spun the dial on his Nightforce as he couldn't hit anything he thought he had dialed in.

Rifle weight was key as I had to hump the rifle over a few hills and dales. When you add a 10 round mag and bipod/sling you gain some weight to any rifle.

Gloves. I was shooting in the St. George area and the terrain was VERY rough on your hands. You can't get a good stable mount when you are half way up a hill....shooting prone is easy and heavy rifles are great. But half way up a hill, every ounce counts...as well as thick pants and gloves (especially on them sticker plants).

I would imagine that too light of a gun can be a problem also...as you are breathing pretty heavily going up and down mountains. If your front end is too light it will wobble all over the place.

StoneWolf
07-19-2012, 11:53 AM
Although I have not owned many long range rifles, I did a large amount of research before building mine. The rifle I built was for an article in TACSIM Magazine so many of the items were donated. (So I have to shamelessly plug them here) I purchase an M700 SPS Tactical with the 20" barrel. However, I had been researching short barrel effects on long range shooting. I decided to cut the barrel down to 16.75 inches. I then added a Holland muzzle break (Donated), a Manners stock MCS Mini-Chassis (Donated), Seekins 30moa Base and Rings(Donated) and a US Optics SN3 Scope (Donated).

Rifle without Scope weights 11 lbs
Rifle with Scope weights 13.8 lbs

Overall length in 38 inches

I did have the stock bedded even though Manners states that it is not really needed. And they are right if you are just qualifying however precision does require a good bedding. I also had the barrel cut, target crowned, and threaded for the Holland brake. I also had the stock trigger reworked to 3.5 lbs. I hired Lance over an Dane Armory to do this for me. I can't say enough about his knowledge and dedication. He is a very confident yet humble man. I firmly believe he made this rifle what it is.

The rifle is balanced at the middle of the magazine well. Which makes it perfect for rapid acquisition shooting. I actually won a contest at a sniper course against 20 various military snipers. I owe it to the balance and stability of the rifle.

Here are some insights that I have gained using this rifle. (Keep in mind these are just my thoughts nothing more, lol)

1. A balanced rifle is as important as the weight and length of the rifle. At 38" 13.8 lbs, she is easy to carry and transition in any environment. (Except the shower).

2. Don't sacrifice a bull barrel for a light barrel... ever. Unless you are willing to build data charts for every 10 degrees, altitude, and barometric pressure. Weather can affect a barrel as much as the heat from the rounds. My stock bull only moves 1/2 moa from cold to hot.

3. Shorter barrels can be more accurate. A barrel only needs one rotation to stabilize so everything after that just builds FPS. However, at 16.75 I was only losing 78 FPS off of the factory stats on the Hornady 178gr BTHP. Factoring in a +/- tolerance that is not as much as I was originally estimating. 78 was the average after firing 6 rounds. A shorter barrel also means less movement when heated, less barrel for barrel wip, and less time in the barrel for us idiots to screw up with poor grip and trigger control. With a good spotter I was able to hit 3 out of 4 rounds at 1200 yds with an 6 to 10 mph full value cross wind.

4. Muzzle brakes are a must. Unless you have the money to have a rifle built to your body shape and mechanics, a Holland brake is the closest you will get. They have a unique design that makes a .308 feel like a slightly pissed off .223. With virtually no muzzle climb and no ground signature.

The better the shooter, the longer the barrel they can use. As a shooter gets better then their bad habits will not effect the round while it is in the barrel. But those who shoot under stress can stay just as accurate with a shorter barrel.

In the end it is all about practice, and finding the right marriage of technology between you and your target.

Here are some pictures of me with the rifle during the contest:

Start position 2 rounds at 100yds (steel target approximately 4x6 inches) - standing
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/stoneaglewolf/Long%20Rang%20shooting/100_1301.jpg

2 rounds - kneeling
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/stoneaglewolf/Long%20Rang%20shooting/100_1302.jpg
2 round - sitting
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/stoneaglewolf/Long%20Rang%20shooting/100_1303.jpg
2 rounds - prone unsupported
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/stoneaglewolf/Long%20Rang%20shooting/100_1304.jpg
You had to have a simulated malfunction and clear the weapon - I simulated one and had a real one all within 42 seconds and no misses. Of course you had to end on a loaded chamber.

I would have to equally attribute the win to the Manners stock, Hollands brake, Seekins stable rings and base, a US Opics scope I could never afford (without a divorce), and a short barrel by Dane Armory. I can say this because I was one nervous shooter, lol.

desertdog
09-18-2012, 10:31 AM
OK, as promised months ago, Ill post pics of my McMillan Game scout stock for my lightweight sniper build. It took me over 4 months to get this stock the way I wanted it from McMillan, and I have to concede that the wait was well worth it.

The stock is VERY light, but stout and comfortable. The master craftsmen at McMillan made the stock a PERFECT fit with the Badger Ordinance bottom metal.I am using a 17" varmint contour Barrel, which is the maximum you can use. A bull barrel is out of the question and a #5-5.5 contour would be perfect IMO. I am going to bed the action to the stock this weekend. I will post again when everything is done, along with range report and total weight.

25434
25433

CaptBeach
09-18-2012, 11:44 AM
That is one sexy damned rifle if ya dont mind me sayin' LOVE THAT STOCK...what did it ed up costing and weighing?




OK, as promised months ago, Ill post pics of my McMillan Game scout stock for my lightweight sniper build. It took me over 4 months to get this stock the way I wanted it from McMillan, and I have to concede that the wait was well worth it.

The stock is VERY light, but stout and comfortable. The master craftsmen at McMillan made the stock a PERFECT fit with the Badger Ordinance bottom metal.I am using a 17" varmint contour Barrel, which is the maximum you can use. A bull barrel is out of the question and a #5-5.5 contour would be perfect IMO. I am going to bed the action to the stock this weekend. I will post again when everything is done, along with range report and total weight.

25434
25433

El Wray
09-19-2012, 06:48 AM
25465

AR15 platform chambered in 6.5 Grendel.
Overall length of 40 inches.

CaptBeach
02-22-2013, 11:06 AM
OK, as promised months ago, Ill post pics of my McMillan Game scout stock for my lightweight sniper build. It took me over 4 months to get this stock the way I wanted it from McMillan, and I have to concede that the wait was well worth it.

The stock is VERY light, but stout and comfortable. The master craftsmen at McMillan made the stock a PERFECT fit with the Badger Ordinance bottom metal.I am using a 17" varmint contour Barrel, which is the maximum you can use. A bull barrel is out of the question and a #5-5.5 contour would be perfect IMO. I am going to bed the action to the stock this weekend. I will post again when everything is done, along with range report and total weight.

25434
25433

So how did this rifle work out? Range report?

glockamolee
03-03-2013, 10:50 PM
IS there still a mfg making carbon fiber barrels? WERE there ever Titanium barrels made? Yes, the cost would be high, but the PTR/G3 (or any 7.62x51) would sure benefit from the weight reduction.

RTMetz
03-11-2013, 02:08 PM
Not sure how much anybody here knows about Kifaru Arms. A friend at church is one of their designers. They have what they call the "Rambling Rifle", and it sounds like I just might get the chance to borrow one for T&E. From what it sounds like in reading through this thread, Kifaru might fit the bill. The Rambling Rifle is purpose built as a lightweight sub 5 pound (with scope, rings, mounts, and sling) hunting rifle. According to my buddy, they are getting sub MOA accuracy, and a tactical version is in the works. Hopefully soon, I'll be able to post some pictures and a thorough after action report of the Rambling Rifle.

CaptBeach
03-11-2013, 02:32 PM
Hmmmm....under 5lbs WITH a scope...switch barrel...and looky looky at how small of a signature it is stored...hmmmmm me thinks you might have stumbled onto something there albeit I'm thinking pricey...Ti action, switch barrel...

http://www.kifaruarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/IMG_0579.jpg

http://www.kifaruarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/DSC_0121.jpg

Custom II
03-11-2013, 03:31 PM
Hmmmm....under 5lbs WITH a scope...switch barrel...and looky looky at how small of a signature it is stored...hmmmmm me thinks you might have stumbled onto something there albeit I'm thinking pricey...Ti action, switch barrel...

http://www.kifaruarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/IMG_0579.jpg

http://www.kifaruarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/DSC_0121.jpg

No question of the barrel free floating here... I wonder how sturdy that little shelf of a forearm is?

CaptBeach
03-11-2013, 04:33 PM
I know...if I had one built I'd have the forend extend out a little more...like at least to the end of the AFG and fed by 308 P-Mags

RTMetz
03-12-2013, 01:05 AM
The forend is reinforced with (I might be wrong) titanium, and yeah, not an inexpensive rifle. They also have a DBM equipped tactical version in the works which will be more affordable, not quite as light, but much lighter than your standard precision bolt gun. My buddy said that they are also incorporating a side folding stock into the tactical version. You better believe I'll be begging, pleading, and making a general nuisance of myself when it comes time to test out the tactical version. I promise to keep you guys posted.

CaptBeach
03-12-2013, 10:53 AM
The forend is reinforced with (I might be wrong) titanium, and yeah, not an inexpensive rifle. They also have a DBM equipped tactical version in the works which will be more affordable, not quite as light, but much lighter than your standard precision bolt gun. My buddy said that they are also incorporating a side folding stock into the tactical version. You better believe I'll be begging, pleading, and making a general nuisance of myself when it comes time to test out the tactical version. I promise to keep you guys posted.

What barrel are they using?

fidalgoman
03-12-2013, 05:09 PM
Hmmmm....under 5lbs WITH a scope...switch barrel...and looky looky at how small of a signature it is stored...hmmmmm me thinks you might have stumbled onto something there albeit I'm thinking pricey...Ti action, switch barrel...


Very nice Cap, on the right path but probably just a bit too much moolah for many of us.

RTMetz
03-12-2013, 09:40 PM
What barrel are they using?

They get barrels from a top tier maker. Think of the three best barrel makers and one of them is it. The way they lighten them is proprietary and I was asked not to disclose anything more than that.

DaveJames
03-13-2013, 08:12 AM
Their barrels are much like Christain Arms, light weight and accurate, they are the sweet hearts of the sheep hunting crowd, easy to pack, lightweight and deadly,

Jim H
04-14-2013, 02:20 PM
You had to have a simulated malfunction and clear the weapon - I simulated one and had a real one all within 42 seconds and no misses. Of course you had to end on a loaded chamber.

I would have to equally attribute the win to the Manners stock, Hollands brake, Seekins stable rings and base, a US Opics scope I could never afford (without a divorce), and a short barrel by Dane Armory. I can say this because I was one nervous shooter, lol.

Did you have issues with the brake kicking up dust prone? I'm asking because the last time I saw a rifle with a brake fire prone in the desert it threw up a truly impressive cloud. The kind of cloud that would make it real easy to call in an air strike from well out of range.

I'll admit that was around 20 years ago and a 300 win mag, and newer brake design may have fixed that. Subsequent shots were not as bad, probably because all the loose debris (and small animals) had been blown away.

Pretty easy to see where we had been shooting after we packed up as well.

barnetmill
04-15-2013, 10:20 PM
Traditionally at least some snipers have moistened the area affected by the muzzle blast. I am recounting information I read from the 1930's during the spanish civil war. If you are not using a suppressor there will be a muzzle blast and likely a dust cloud. After your shot(s) it seems prudent to move elsewhere.