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View Full Version : What's the difference between these three 9mm rounds?



Fractal
03-10-2012, 09:22 AM
I'm not sure if I can post links to another supplier's website so I won't unless I'm told I can.

My question revolves around 3 different products I've seen on the site for sale. They all look identical to me but are listed with different prices:


Ammo 9mm Federal Personal Defense 115 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point 1180 fps 20 Round Box: $17.31
9mm Federal Classic Hi-Shok 115 Grain JHP 50 Round Box 1180 FPS Self Defense Ammunition: $16.79
9mm Federal Personal Defense Jacketed Hollow Point 115 Grain 1180 FPS 20 Round Box: $17.19

These are all the same rounds, aren't they? Even if they're in different colored boxes?

heavyzee
03-10-2012, 09:50 AM
the top and bottom ones look like the same, but the middle looks different (cant imagine they would sell you 20 for the price of 50??)...

the middle is prob the 9bp which has been carried for years by lots of LEO (doesn't mean shit... i know) and i carry it(<-civilian)

The top and bottom look different?? maybe they are bonded?

cavegeo
03-10-2012, 10:21 AM
Ammo 9mm Federal Personal Defense 115 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point 1180 fps 20 Round Box: $17.31
9mm Federal Classic Hi-Shok 115 Grain JHP 50 Round Box 1180 FPS Self Defense Ammunition: $16.79
9mm Federal Personal Defense Jacketed Hollow Point 115 Grain 1180 FPS 20 Round Box: $17.19


The first and third one are the old Hydro Shock rounds that have a post in the center of the hollow point. Not as good as more modern hollow points.

The middle one is a standard hollow point you can get better ammo by choosing a more modern design such as Ranger, HST, or Golden Sabers.

Pokeguyjai
03-10-2012, 12:38 PM
If you are going to buy self defense ammo, I tend to be bias toward the heavier grain bonded bullets. 115 gr is good for training because it is cheap, but it moves very fast therefore penetrating very fast. Faster penetration means that it has less time to expand and work. 147gr is a good choice, great for sub-sonic ammo for suppressed guns. I find 124 gr to be a good middle.

Most of the modern "JHP" are bonded. Federal HST is a good type as are Gold Dots, Winchester Ranger Bonded, Hornady, etc.

themonk
03-10-2012, 12:49 PM
If you are going to buy self defense ammo, I tend to be bias toward the heavier grain bonded bullets. 115 gr is good for training because it is cheap, but it moves very fast therefore penetrating very fast. Faster penetration means that it has less time to expand and work. 147gr is a good choice, great for sub-sonic ammo for suppressed guns. I find 124 gr to be a good middle.

Most of the modern "JHP" are bonded. Federal HST is a good type as are Gold Dots, Winchester Ranger Bonded, Hornady, etc.

Have a look at Hornady Critical Defense ammunition. I think you get the best of both worlds with that round, speed and massive expansion. It was designed to just dump energy into the target and expand every time.

I have not used them but their Critical Duty is said to be as good as the Critical Defense but with more penetration if needed.

Pokeguyjai
03-10-2012, 02:48 PM
Have a look at Hornady Critical Defense ammunition. I think you get the best of both worlds with that round, speed and massive expansion. It was designed to just dump energy into the target and expand every time.

I have not used them but their Critical Duty is said to be as good as the Critical Defense but with more penetration if needed.

Thanks for the info, but all the newer stuff pretty much works the same.

To nit pick, I think the Hornady Critical Defense stuff is not bonded which definitely helps with the expansion but will limit it's consistency if you need it to penetrate tough barriers such as car windshields, walls, thin metal, etc. (Bonded ammo does better with barrier penetration but does not expand as fast)

Again, I am nit picking.

themonk
03-10-2012, 03:55 PM
No, your abslutly right. They actually designed it not to do that. Thats what the critical duty is for - to penetrate though barriers such as car windshields, walls, thin metal, etc.

Fractal
04-29-2012, 08:18 AM
But they're all 115 grains, all have a velocity of 1180 FPS, all are jacketed hollow points... so what's the difference? I mean the Hi-Shok looks cool, but if it has all the same stats, why go for it if it's more expensive?

How can you tell if one's bonded or not? What does that mean?

JeffC
04-29-2012, 08:29 AM
Have a look at Hornady Critical Defense ammunition. I think you get the best of both worlds with that round, speed and massive expansion. It was designed to just dump energy into the target and expand every time.

I have not used them but their Critical Duty is said to be as good as the Critical Defense but with more penetration if needed.

With respect, I don't think the theory of energy dump is credible. My simple physics understanding of the way the energy is dispersed is that if the bullet does not go all the way through the target (over penetration) then 100% of the energy has been absorbed by the target.

On the other hand, expansion makes a larger wound channel thereby making your chances greater of nicking something vital.

-jeff

cavegeo
04-29-2012, 08:36 AM
But they're all 115 grains, all have a velocity of 1180 FPS, all are jacketed hollow points... so what's the difference? I mean the Hi-Shok looks cool, but if it has all the same stats, why go for it if it's more expensive?

How can you tell if one's bonded or not? What does that mean?

Yes, they are the same weight but they will not perform as well as premium ammo such as Gold Dot, HST or DPX. After much testing the FBI have established that 12 inches of penetration is the minimal they require in there ammo that they issue to their agents. These older designs do not meet the requirements of the FBI. Due to these requirements many of the ammo companies have come up with these new bullet designs that do meet the requirements.

As for being Bonded it will be listed on the packaging that the bullets are bonded. Which means that the lead core is bonded to the Gilded Metal Jacket, this help the bullet to penetrate better due to the core and jacket staying together as it travels through object such as windshields or doors.

ZombieTactics
04-29-2012, 12:11 PM
... With respect, I don't think the theory of energy dump is credible. My simple physics understanding of the way the energy is dispersed is that if the bullet does not go all the way through the target (over penetration) then 100% of the energy has been absorbed by the target. ... A better way of looking at it is to think a little about what is actually happening. "Energy" is an expression of the ability of some thing to "do work". A handgun bullet only has a couple of "works" to do ... which is where the energy is used/lost. Chief among those is the ability to penetrate tissue. Another possible "work to do" is expanding ... which also uses/loses energy in the process. Handgun rounds don't really do anything else.

There is no "dump" of energy, only energy used, which is thereby lost in the process. A bullet which stops doing something ... which penetrates no further and expands no more ... does so because it is out of energy at that point. There is no energy to be "dumped".

The ideal bullet would expand immediately upon impact, retain its shape and then penetrate completely through, falling to the ground directly afterwards. Alternately, the bullet would fragment into decent-sized pieces, with each piece achieving full penetration. No designs exist to accomplish these behaviors reliably across the range of targets and distances required.

This is one of the reasons why sufficient penetration is considered (by the FBI and most others) as the primary means by which to measure effectiveness. JHP expansion is never as reliable in the real world as in testing, but it's nice to have if you can get it. My personal opinion is that using anything which meets FBI standards fits the bill ... DPX, HST, etc. being among the better choices.

Fitpro
04-30-2012, 01:26 AM
Take a look at CorBon DPX 115gr +p HP. Quite a few of us on this board carry them. They are expensive but well worth it if you need them.

Grey Man
04-30-2012, 05:12 AM
I gave CorBon back 20 some rounds with bad crimps, bullets falling out of casings bad! That was almost 3 months ago IIRC. Have yet to get a refund or return ammo. I was advised it would take "a while" but the service I've received isn't up to 1.30 something a shot. My next carry ammo will be hornady.

Fitpro
04-30-2012, 06:13 AM
Nathan,

That is incredibly bad customer service. Stay on their ass, Brother. Ridiculous!! Remember, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

Cliff

ss58
04-30-2012, 07:15 AM
I have settled on 124's for practice and am finding Aguilla very reasonably priced. For social ammo I have been going between Golden Sabers 124 and the Ranger 127+P+ Since it's a new platform for me I am shooting more social ammo then I have in a while but that's not a bad thing...after 30yrs of buying .45 it's all good :rolleyes1:

LawDog
05-02-2012, 11:31 AM
Items 1 and 3 do appear to be the same. The Hi-Shok is different. It just isn't a "premium" bullet. Buying from the "premium" lines is a good idea. It isn't just about getting a magic bullet that expands in some miraculous fashion. Every manufacturer pays more attention to quality control in their premium lines. QC is pretty good with Federal anyway. And statistically you may not care whether a given round has a failure rate of 0.001% or 0.0001%. It all looks too remote. I wouldn't fault someone for carrying Hi-Shok.

I conducted some redneck ballistics tests in college, using wet newspaper in cardboard boxes. I tested all kinds of ammo. No, it wasn't uniform ballistics gelatin. No, I'm not a scientist. But I focused on uniformity and I developed a decent catalog of fired bullets to analyze. Mostly, every round worked well. Mostly. There were a few JHPs that didn't open up at all. I recall specifically that some of the Speer Lawman rounds didn't open up a bit. (The Lawman line isn't intended for duty carry. They are training rounds.) I remember some cheap Fiocchi JHPs in .45 ACP, that were intended for training, opened up beautifully and had great penetration. All of the premium rounds (Golden Sabres, Silvertips, Gold Dots, etc.) opened up well and had good penetration. Most of the second-tier ammo did as well.

I only had one really sad discovery during that testing: the best performing round (by far) was the Winchester Black Talon. The SXT, which is touted as being the reincarnation of Black Talon, was nowhere near the same. Comparing the two fired bullets was like comparing a 1974 Plymouth Duster (with a 360 cid V-8) to a 1992 Plymouth Duster (with a crappy four-banger). The "progression" was not what one would hope for within the same line.