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Vig Creed
12-30-2003, 12:15 PM
Your car has broken down in a bad section of a strange city. It is 2 am and the streets are deserted. It's cold in your stalled car so you and your good looking young wife decide to start walking in the hope of finding a phone or open store.

Several blocks later 3 gangbangers step out of a doorway, blocking your path. They spread out and come up close. The leader asks for some change.

You also see 3 more gangbangers coming up behind you, blocking any possible retreat. No one else is in sight.

You are illegally armed with a 15 shot 9mm Glock you had been carrying in the car. But it is in your belt, SOB, under your coat, and difficult to get to fast.

What do you do? You can't get away. There isn't any help in sight. They are leering at your wife.

If you take your wallet out and try to hand money over you will be putting yourself in a bad defensive position. The BG's will be able to see that your hands are empty of weapons and safely grab you. You can also "sense" they are planning to attack regardless of whether you hand money over or not.

The 6 BG's don't have any weapons showing. Nor have they actually tried to rob you yet. Nor have they said anything about raping your wife. But...........you can "sense" they are probably armed and intend to rob you and rape your wife.

You obviously don't have any legally justifiable reason to take lethal action yet. Plus your gun is being carried illegally. What do you do?

creed

billcameron
12-30-2003, 12:58 PM
A lot of guys carry their wallet/money in hip pocket, I do. Therefore, I don't believe your motion of reaching for your wallet under coat will "look" any different than reaching for your gun. In the situation you describe I would indicate I was going for my wallet (let it up to you if say "let me get my wallet" or just reach) and come out with gun in hand. Actually I think this situation is more clear cut than aggressive panhandler who may be just aggressive panhandler or stick up man. In the situation you describe their intentions are clear. I would not worry too much about fact they have not made verbal threat. Not exactly if a tree falls in the wilderness and there is no one to hear it does it make a sound situation? But no impartial witness around and your word against theirs. If or at what point I would fire is a difficult question and hard to say without being there. Obviously best outcome is they leave at sight of gun. If you shoot one or two and rest leave question of whether to report esp with unlicensed gun. Of course untraceable gun could have been BG's gun that you took from him in struggle, but then what about that holster you mentioned. Beyond this there is question of cover, distance, etc.

Naturally there are things you could have done to prepare, such as having gun more accessible- let us hear it for J frame. Also a surefire light would be great to shine in their eyes, look for weapons, etc. Pepper spray may have been useful, but I have my doubts with a group and I would want to maintain whatever distance I could. Now for "aggessive panhandler" pepper spray does have its place. And where was your cell phone and AAA membership.

Edited: Just reread your post and you said glock in belt in SOB position and I assume without holster.(That guy in UK does I believe make holster called SOB, therefore my confusion). Now this changes somethings. Was it legal for you to have gun in car and you only became "illegal" when you took gun with you because of unusual and dangerous circumstances? I am not lawyer but you may have "case" there for having gun- don't some States have laws permitting arming yourself without permit in specific dangerous circumstances. Also with a glock in your belt was a round in chamber. If no round in chamber will you immediately chamber a round upon drawing- I think I would in the circumstances you describe.

RedDevil
12-30-2003, 02:53 PM
I would deny them of my hard earned money. If they didn't want to let us pass then I would say ok, let me reach for my wallet and as I reach for the wallet in my back pocket, grab the gun and draw on them. If they didn't immediately leave then I would shoot. If you have alot of potential assailants like that, it is probably justifiable to shoot. I would worry about the laws later. My wife's and my life are more important right now.

Bodfish
12-30-2003, 03:04 PM
I would try to position myself and my wife with our backs to a wall if possible, and reply that we don't have any "spare change". If one of them makes a statement indicating an intent to rob and/or physically harm either or both of us, I would make a "fearful" sounding statement along the lines of "here, please don't hurt us, take my wallet", draw the Glock, and fire three rounds into the BG doing the talking. I would then shoot any of the BGs that didn't immediately retreat, with the number of rounds determined by the number of BGs who don't back off, i.e., if there is more than one remaining, each gets one round with the last getting two, then returning in reverse order as needed. I would then, if possible, head for the nearest phone and call the police, telling them that my wife and I were put in fear of our lives, and that I had to shoot one or more BGs. Next, I would call my lawyer,if I had one, and wait for the police. This scenario is a good example of why it is appropriate for citizens to have high capacity magazines.

billcameron
12-30-2003, 03:06 PM
red devil,

I would try to maintain distance. I would be concerned if they let me pass especially if I had to pass close to them and/or between them- now they are right at my back on both sides. I would rather go back the way I came or if I passed them at least do it without getting close to them.

Timber Wolf
12-30-2003, 04:37 PM
Uh, I have to ask: Why were you in the bad part of town at 2:00am? What happened to "The best way to win a fight is to stay out of one."?

Just asking.

RedDevil
12-30-2003, 04:47 PM
Bill, you're absolutely correct. I would try to keep as much distance as possible between them. My impression from the post was 3 guys sort of jumped out in front of me and 3 more came up from the rear leaving little room between us and the BG's.

Anthony
12-30-2003, 04:59 PM
Once more, you've hit us with a good one, Vig Creed !
I'm PUI, so I'll be back later. But this scenario is THE perfect/often/common Brazilian reality !

Upto now, there has been good input. - Illegal gun, 6 BGs, etc, FOR GOD'S SAKE ! Draw, shoot, kill them ALL !!!!!

We don't all live in Brazil !? - Here, after doing what I've just said, you'd walk home, go to bed and have a good nights sleep :D
I will really be back with a more PC answer !

billcameron; How I enjoy your posts/answers ! ( We have to meet someday !?)
SOB.
That 'Brit' is Andy Arratoonian. IMHO, one of the best holster makers around. I have many of his holsters, - although I don't have an SOB. ( My good freind & business partner swears by them !)
His site, - www.horsehoe.co.uk

Regards,
Anthony.

DaveJames
12-30-2003, 06:19 PM
Vig, first thing that popped into my mind was east LA or east St.Louis, very bad places to say the lest, wer're talking hard core gangbangers? 3 up and 3 behind, hopefully my wife will have remembered to turn to face those behind us, depending on their insistance of money will decide the next move, I'm more then happy to just flip them my wallet, "Hey all I have is in my wallet" reach for it and flip it out to them maintain distance as possible, if at the moment to decide to continue the approach, I will pull and shoot the closest to me, more then likely the mouth piece for the group and do so to the others as needed,grab the wife and head back toward where I got off the interstate{only reason for beening in that part of town} and keep walking .I believe that the disparity of force would be a good argument, here carrying concealed 1st time is a misdemeanor, deal with that and the out come as it comes

Ragsbo
12-30-2003, 09:30 PM
I would attempt to walk away and tell them I didn't have any. Their response would dictate what i would do next. If it made it clear that we were in a world of hurt, I would pretend to fo for the money as they demanded but pay it in 9mm, taking out the one I perceived to be the worse threat, and working my way down until there wasn't any threat left. (hopefully getting there before running out of ammo). As much as I would hate to, I would call the police and EMT's and a good lawyer (maybe the lawyer first).


Of course the real trouble would begin when I got home and had to explain the young wife to the old wife! (JUST KIDDING!!!!)

Failure Drill
12-30-2003, 10:41 PM
All I can say is that I'd rather have my wife attend my trial than my funeral. Get your weapon out, let them see you do it. If they push the issue then you push back, so to speak. -FD

Pale Horse
12-31-2003, 10:42 AM
Vig you made a flaw in your situation. You said that the bad guys came out and surrounded you and were leering at your wife. However, you said this was a few blocks down. So either them bad guys have good eye sight or...... I am just messing with you.

My wallet is located in my back pockets, but if I am carrying the movement for my pistol is very noticable so I would draw as fast as I could and draw down and kill the first one that made a move toward me, the second it thought there was going to be a problem. I also generally would have my weapon more accessable than behind me. For example in my hand or in my coat pocket also if I am in a bad part of town I would have two pistols, a cell phone, reloads, flash light, knife and some good shoes for the excution of the nike drill.

Now comes the common sence on my end. As a general set of rules I do not; go anywhere after 1 am with anyone, If traveling I dont go routes I dont know, carrying illegal if I can help it, carry a glock, under no circumstances would I leave my wife alone without a weapon (I dont have a wife), go down dark roads and try my hardest not to get into these situations.

Anthony
01-01-2004, 10:01 AM
OK Vig,
I'm not PUI now, so a more thoughtfull responce to your situation.
I'm comenting on my reality here, which may not be yours.
In Brazil, if in this type of situation, and the BGs don't have weapons in hand, then they don't have weapons. They are relying on their number to menace you. Good. I'm armed, they're not.
Any delay, sign of weekness, drawing but not shooting, would give them the upper hand. Probably disarming you, executing you with your own gun, and then having 'fun' with your wife, before killing her too.
I would pretend to reach for my wallet, draw, and shoot ! The 'mouth' first, going to whoever seemed to be the most threat next. Probably on opening fire, the others not yet shot, would run. If they didn't, they would get shot. It's that simple. It has to be that way.
After action: Walk ( don't run ) away as quickly as possible. Dump the illegal gun. A shower and a good whisky before going to bed. Enjoy my young wife, in the way that I prevented these gangbangers from doing :D
Tell nobody.

Regards,
Anthony.

Vig Creed
01-01-2004, 06:33 PM
OK guys, good answers. Especially Anthony, who obviously understands real BG's!

However, in the USA, Anthony, most BG's will not show a weapon on the street until they are confident they can take down their victims. Which makes the timely use of legal deadly force problematic, due to having to (maybe) shoot BG's before knowing for sure if they are armed, or being able to later prove in court exactly what their intentions were.

You definately do not want BG's both in front and behind. I would strongly suggest moving so that your back is not to any of the BG's, if possible. Otherwise, when you draw down on the BG's in front, the ones behind you will attack. (Notice Gabe, there are situations where I do recommend moving!)

I would draw as soon as I "sensed" an impending attack, move laterally (probably out into the street) so that I could see all the BG's at once, and make them an offer they couldn't refuse as I began withdrawing across the street with my wife.

If they started to come for us anyway, or reached for weapons, I'd start shooting as soon as they started to make their move, and keep shooting until all threats were neutralized or had vacated the area.

I wouldn't neglect to report the incident, as some suggest, because the cops are certain to connect the broken down car with the shooting. Plus, in shooting situations, victims are considerably better off (legally) to be the first ones to report being attacked by robbers/rapists.

creed

Anthony
01-02-2004, 08:07 AM
Vig,
Obviously there are cultural differences, which dictate how we would react. Obviously some things are no different. - Surprise, agression, good shooting, determination, ruthlessness etc etc.
One question for you, - or anyone on the Forum for that matter: - How would the fact that you reacted whilst 'illegally' carrying effect the investigation/possible prosecution ?
Pure curiousity on my part ?

I look forward to your next scenario :D

Regards,
Anthony.

michael
01-02-2004, 10:55 AM
While I find these scenario's interesting to read, I won't respond to them because this is a public forum and fully discoverable by counsel. I don't want to give anyone ammo to use against me should I ever be in one of these situations in the future.

Anthony
01-02-2004, 12:21 PM
While I find these scenario's interesting to read, I won't respond to them because this is a public forum and fully discoverable by counsel. I don't want to give anyone ammo to use against me should I ever be in one of these situations in the future.

OK gents. Once more, - ignorance on my part ! Could a comment on this or any other Forum, REALLY be used against you in a court of law ?
IMHO, wouldn't it simply be dismissed as a 'Walter Mitty'/PUI sort of BS - wanna-be-a- Warrior sort of crap ?

I can understand in the case of someone sending e-mails of a threatening nature, or making phone calls of a threatening nature.
But simple comment on a Forum, about what we would do IF..........?

Maybe I'm really out of touch with your reality these days gents.
We've all seen the film, - 'Enemy of the State'. We've all read the book, - '1984'. Has it really become reality ?

Maybe I've been in the '3rd world' too long, and need alittle updating about the realities of life in the '1st world'.

Regards,
Anthony.

Anthony
01-02-2004, 12:42 PM
Another comment that came to mind now.
Today, in Brazil, any new gun purchases ( legal ) have become difficult, - if not impossible for most. ( Politicians are not included in this group !)
Almost 11 years ago I met a girl. We never got to properly date, but became freinds.
As a young girl, together with her sister, she was locked into a bedroom of the family's house,( by a gang who invaded the house,) while her mother was raped various times in front of her father. He was then executed.
As far as I could tell, she was of sound mind.
I ask: Do you think that these new laws here will make any difference to the average family/father ?
IMHO, sometimes one just has to ignore certain laws. Depending on the possible outcome, will determine the possible ignorance.
Maybe it would just be better to move to another state in your case gents.

Regards,
Anthony.

Sleuth
01-02-2004, 01:12 PM
Interesting that inherent in most of these "on the street" posts is an assumtion that we cannot get out into the street.
I would pull my wife into the street, narrowing my defensive triangle, and start yelling "FIRE, CALL THE FIRE DEPARTMENT, THERE IS A HOUSE ON FIRE".

1. Move into the street, causing the BG's to actually persue us. This becomes an agressive act.
2. In a bad neighborhood, people may not call the police. But if they think their house is on fire, they will call the fire department.
3. Narrowning the defensive triangle in this case means that I can see all the BG's at one time.
4. If they advance toward us, we would move toward cover while I discreetly drew the handgun. I don't forsee the need to shoot all of them, they are usually cowards, and would face the "felony murder" law in most states. So, after the 1st one is down, the others will most likely flee.

All of this is moot - as previously noted, I would be on the freeway, cell phone in hand, waiting for the tow truck.

"Is this trip really necessary?"

Steve Camp
01-02-2004, 02:13 PM
You definately do not want BG's both in front and behind. I would strongly suggest moving so that your back is not to any of the BG's, if possible. Otherwise, when you draw down on the BG's in front, the ones behind you will attack. (Notice Gabe, there are situations where I do recommend moving!)

I would draw as soon as I "sensed" an impending attack, move laterally (probably out into the street) so that I could see all the BG's at once, and make them an offer they couldn't refuse as I began withdrawing across the street with my wife.


I inferred from the original description that the six BGs had more or less "enveloped" my wife and I. That is, the three BGs to my front had spread out in a sort of semi-circle, and the three BGs to my rear had spread out in an opposite semi-circle, so that my wife and I were "contained", and therefore could not move into the street without coming into close proximity / contact to at least one BG... so I thought (was it Bodfish?) the "get my back to the wall" response was most insightful. If the BGs are more or less "line abreast" to my front and rear, in effect "blocking" my movement up and down the sidewalk, but not blocking the street, then I really like Vig's thoughts on running out into the street. Add some strong, forceful negative verbal communication such as "NO! I HAVE NO CHANGE! LEAVE US ALONE!" and any pursuit on their part would sure seem to be an aggressive act.

I have some questions:

1) Is not the "suddenly appeared in front of me three disreputable characters, and three more of their companions to my rear, blocking my free progress, demanding money all at 2am in the morning, AND staring / leering at my wife" sufficient justification for the immediate and vigorous application of deadly force? How would one verbally "explain" this to the police (in the USA)? Or is that what your attorney is for? Vig, what would you "say" to the police?

Would one simply say "I was in fear for my wife's life, and for mine"? Or is it better to say "Officer, I really want to cooperate fully, but I must confer with my attorney (or counsel) first?"

2) WRT to my first question, is it necessary to "move" to force them to pursue you (thereby forcing them to commit another aggressive act)? Or is your movement a tactical move (rather than a "legal" one) in that you are attempting to prevent an opponent from having the drop on you from the front and the rear?

3) I have been taught that you only draw your weapon if you are justified in using it, and, therefore, if you draw your weapon, you are drawing to immediately shoot your target. Vig, you appear to say that you draw your weapon such that it is visible to the BGs, and then make them an offer they can't refuse (I'm guessing you suggest they leave), and if they do not, or if they begin to pursue you, you engage them. This response appears to differ from what I have "been taught"... I am interested in thoughts regarding times when it may be appropriate to visibly (i.e. NOT covertly) draw, but NOT immediately shoot.

Would it be "better" from a legal standpoint to quickly move to the street, facing the BGs, place your stronghand on the weapon -- but NOT draw, while at the same time make your "offer" to the BGs? If they "refuse" your offer, then you draw and immediately engage? Or is this tactic a BAD idea in that if the BGs think you have a weapon, and they are intent on having you and your wife, that they will immediately draw on you? That is, by NOT drawing, while perhaps better legally, you place yourself at a potentially poor tactical position in that you are giving up some aggressiveness / initiative, whereas if you have already drawn, you have "the drop" on the BGs and have suddenly reversed the tactical situation -- that is, by drawing, you now have the initiative, and the element of surprise?

Also, I am assuming that if one draws in the manner that I perceive Vig suggesting, that one draws to a low ready type position (I am guessing that the SUL position is not appropriate here?), rather than pointing it at a BG.

Here in Colorado, there is no "brandishing" charge or statute. As a fellow IDPA'r (officer in Pueblos Sheriff's office) explained to me, the charge against me for drawing my weapon would be something like felony menacing or felony assault with a deadly weapon. So, I am torn between "draw and immediately engage" vs. "draw to low ready and give BGs one last chance to withdraw immediately". Comments / thoughts?



If they started to come for us anyway, or reached for weapons, I'd start shooting as soon as they started to make their move, and keep shooting until all threats were neutralized or had vacated the area.


Here here! I understand the intent of their subsequent pursuit and that it would be much easier (legally) to show that such pursuit by a large disparity of force at 2am to be an aggressive act rising to the level of "immediate threat to life and/or great bodily injury" and that the resultant immediate and vigorous application of force on my part to have been justified (and required if my wife and I are to survive.)



I wouldn't neglect to report the incident, as some suggest, because the cops are certain to connect the broken down car with the shooting. Plus, in shooting situations, victims are considerably better off (legally) to be the first ones to report being attacked by robbers/rapists.


When reporting the incident, what exactly would you say to the police / 911 technician?

Vig, what was "illegal" about your sidearm? Was the firearm itself stolen? Or was the act of carrying it concealed "illegal"?
Would you dispose of the firearm? If found out, though, that doesn't look too good, does it?

billcameron
01-02-2004, 03:30 PM
While I find these scenario's interesting to read, I won't respond to them because this is a public forum and fully discoverable by counsel. I don't want to give anyone ammo to use against me should I ever be in one of these situations in the future.

Michael,

First I believe you have a valid concern, although I know of no instance when this occurred. But still once they connected you and your "handle" all they have to do is log in and use the search function. I don't know if a judge would admit this in court or not. However, once admitted I believe everything could be considered not only on this forum but other forums you posted on. Its a two edged sword. I believe I could introduce a lot of posts from any member than indicated their desire to avoid a conflict. Not only are there posts that indicate desire to avoid a conflict but solid, specific advise on how to do so. I doubt if the average person with a CCW permit spends anywhere near the time, thought and effort as the average member of this forum when it comes to avoidance of conflict.

Anthony
01-03-2004, 07:31 AM
Concerning the possible use of posts my a member in a court of law, maybe Gabe could ask admin to creat a thread, whereby if a member enters the thread, typing his/her 'handle', admin would erase everything concerning that member straight away !
Just an idea :p

Omega
01-03-2004, 09:54 AM
Your car has broken down in a bad section of a strange city. It is 2 am and the streets are deserted. It's cold in your stalled car so you and your good looking young wife decide to start walking in the hope of finding a phone or open store.

Well I would have already called AAA (I am a member) or Ford Roadside Assistance (it is free under warranty of my F150). I always have a small B.O.B. under the back seat, and I also have 2 blankets & a pillow behind the back seat for my wife when we are traveling. Hopefully this alone, will allow me to stay in my vehicle and avoid any problems but for the sake of the scenario Ill still answer below for the mental exercise.

Several blocks later 3 gangbangers step out of a doorway, blocking your path. They spread out and come up close. The leader asks for some change.

You also see 3 more gangbangers coming up behind you, blocking any possible retreat. No one else is in sight.

Apparently my situational awareness was offline.

Before they are right on top of me can Id do anything I could to keep my distance. Can I cross the street, is there a doorway or alley or something/someway I can keep my wife behind me and all 6 of them in front of me and avoid being flanked, possibly a way to barricade myself behind a dumpster or something to give some cover so I can call 911 on my cell phone?

You are illegally armed with a 15 shot 9mm Glock you had been carrying in the car. But it is in your belt, SOB, under your coat, and difficult to get to fast.


It depends how cold it is. If it is really cold, and Im wearing a large parka type coat/jacket with large pockets it maybe in my coat pocket, already in my hand(hand in pocket).

What do you do? You can't get away. There isn't any help in sight. They are leering at your wife.

If you take your wallet out and try to hand money over you will be putting yourself in a bad defensive position. The BG's will be able to see that your hands are empty of weapons and safely grab you. You can also "sense" they are planning to attack regardless of whether you hand money over or not.

The 6 BG's don't have any weapons showing. Nor have they actually tried to rob you yet. Nor have they said anything about raping your wife. But...........you can "sense" they are probably armed and intend to rob you and rape your wife.

You obviously don't have any legally justifiable reason to take lethal action yet. Plus your gun is being carried illegally. What do you do?

Dont I have legal justification? If our lives are in jeopardy because the goblins have the opportunity, ability/means, & perceived intent I do.

Opportunity usually comes down to distance. Is the suspect within a certain distance, this could demonstrate opportunity. For example a goblin with a knife can close 21 faster than most shooters can present their weapon and fire.
They have the opportunity

Ability or Means, the goblin have the ability to inflict grave bodily injury or death. The ability could be a concealed weapons such as guns, knives, striking weapons, or most obviously their disparity of force. A disparity of force can be if the goblin is significantly bigger & stronger than you, or numerical superiority / multiple goblins.
They have the ability or means

Perceived Intent - Intent could be either perceived or verbal, is he shouting Im going t kill you? Does they appear to be in a mental place where using violence to get what he wants makes sense to them? This is very subjective but Id be prepared to defend my position in court.
Being cornered/circled at 2:00am by a small gang I would perceive as intent.

From what I understand jeopardy is when the three criteria above are met, and in this situation they are met

Id initiate conversation, hey guys, where is the nearest liquor store or 7/11?
If he asked again Id tell him I have no change.
If they ask for money Id flatly refuse.

If they started to approach to within 10 Id do my best posturing and issue a stern command to stay back.
If they continued to approach, Id say okay here is my wallet just leave us alone but it wouldnt be my wallet that gets presented.

If any further act of aggression or posturing on the part of the goblins was made, lethal force would be used.

Id rather sit in prison, knowing someday Ill get out and be with my wife and family again, than sit at home knowing I let my wife get beaten, rapped, etc

By the way, I'm new around here and think this is a fantastic forum.

Vig Creed
01-04-2004, 10:16 PM
Steve2267 writes: I inferred from the original description that the six BGs had more or less "enveloped" my wife and I.
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creed's Answer: Sorry that I didn't make the situation clear enough. Since we are all "aware" and "ready" types here on this forum, I was assuming none of us would allow gang-bangers to surround us. We would, instead, discreetly access our pistol and perhaps move out into the vacant street (or cross it) while they were advancing, and before they got too close.
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some questions:

1) Is not the "suddenly appeared in front of me three disreputable characters, and three more of their companions to my rear, blocking my free progress, demanding money all at 2am in the morning, AND staring / leering at my wife" sufficient justification for the immediate and vigorous application of deadly force?

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Creed's Answer #1: No. It isn't legal to shoot unless you are in JUSTIFIABLE and REASONABLE fear of death or serious injury, and the suspects have the actual ability to kill or injure.

In the subject situation you "know in your heart" what they are intending to do, but might not be able to prove it in court. Which is exactly why criminals don't show weapons or attack until they are sure of their victims in the "real world".

-----------------------------------------------------------------

(2) WRT to my first question, is it necessary to "move" to force them to pursue you (thereby forcing them to commit another aggressive act)? Or is your movement a tactical move (rather than a "legal" one) in that you are attempting to prevent an opponent from having the drop on you from the front and the rear?

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Creed's Answer #2: The move is tactical. It allows you to keep all 6 in view, plus allows you to avoid the BG's completely, unless they continue to pursue you.

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(3) I have been taught that you only draw your weapon if you are justified in using it...

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Creed's Answer #3: I draw my weapon whenever I think it is prudent. In the subject situation I would allow the BG's to see it if they continued to approach and act aggressively. That would be their warning. If I draw it, I am ready to use it to protect my wife and myself and it is not a bluff. What happens next is up to them. I would be happy if they just walked away and left.

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(4) When reporting the incident, what exactly would you say to the police / 911 technician?

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CReed's Answer #4: It depends on how the situation plays out. Basically, I would say that my wife and I had been attacked by a gang that was trying to rob and kill us. Or something similar, depending on the facts. I would repeat the same thing to the responding officers, and respectfully decline to give a detailed statement until after I had been treated by my doctor and had legal representation present.
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Vig, what was "illegal" about your sidearm?

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It was illegal only because I didn't have a CCW permit for that state.

creed

Mnukedude
02-01-2004, 11:20 PM
To begin with, don't allow the encirclement to complete. As soon as you see the second three, move out of the kill zone by fast walking backwards or running (don't forget the wife- fortunately mine is German, so I'll just tell her what I'm going to do in her mother tongue--the average gangbanger doesn't speak German, I'll bet.) If anyone gets chased or grabbed, I start shooting.

P.S. I don't have any spare change.

zippy
02-07-2004, 07:08 PM
Ability...Opportunity... In...Int...

To hell with Intent ! Draw now !

If these gentlemen don't seem to understand German
(as in Glock) in about 1 second, then shoot !

Seems really simple to me. Did I miss something? :confused:

TravisABQ
10-08-2004, 01:12 AM
IG? Offsides?

I'm not familiar with that.

I just took AZ renewal class and the third componant of
a threat was called MANIFEST intent.

I have had a few goblins try to kill me, several times,
and they never screamed "I'm gonna kill you!"

Just didn't happen.

They surrounded me or rushed me with out a word.

The scenario above I would interpret that
the demand for change is just distraction while the
goblins get in position.

Here in Albuquerque, within about a mile, there
have recently been 2 incidents where a person was
attacked by a "panhandler". One was shot and one
was stabbed.

Don't anybody fool yourself, even one "panhandler"
is a threat.

TravisABQ

lead_magnet
10-08-2004, 03:20 AM
Dont forget ... if there are none of the BGs left to tell the tale, then noone in the court room will know they didn't threaten you.

I'd try my best to see to it, that they didn't leave that scene.

battleground
10-09-2004, 07:09 PM
I understand this is a set up scenario, but I'll post a question to the husbands responding. Why isn't your wife armed too?

TravisABQ
10-09-2004, 10:44 PM
"Interactive Gunfighting"
hmm ok. Isn't it always?

I had one incident where I had a gang of a dozen
or more, armed with 2x4s and the like, coming at
me from 3 directions.

I did not have a gun then, only CS spray.
(This was before pepper spray)
Pathetically useless weapon. I question whether
pepper spray is any better. A bullet doesn't blow
back in your face with a light breeze.

I rushed the set which was closing first, pivoted and
rushed the next group... pivoted..... you get the idea.

Gained enough time to open my car door and escape.
They were trying to heave head sized chunks of concrete
at me as I left.

If I need more justification than that for shooting,
I'd like to know WHAT.

Police gave me a scolding because tear gas was
illegal in Wisconsin. I told them how much I
respected their opinion.

TravisABQ

TravisABQ
10-09-2004, 11:37 PM
Sorry If I took the short bus today,

I just kind of wandered along and found a lot of
really good tips everywhere I look.

Yeeks! now that's REALLY interactive!

I probably saw IG listed and taking a course with
Gabe is high on my list....

I have just gotten one of his books, and reading his posts here..
I like the cut of his jib.

I'm next planning on a SG class in Mesa, AZ,
with a good trainer there.

I have read about folks going to the WT symposium
in Memphis: tempting, but I'm not likely to get there.

TravisABQ