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View Full Version : Why do the Seals use Sigs?



Sidetracker
09-27-2011, 11:41 PM
Does anyone know why the Seals use Sigs vs. the other brands available? Not looking to start a "my gun is better than your gun" thread. Just wondered if there is an advantage the Sigs have?

Shdwdncr
09-28-2011, 12:39 AM
I know three Seals at my AO. They all carry Sigs.

I asked them: why? They replied: this is what they issue us....but we rather have Glocks.

S.

Invisible_Man
09-28-2011, 12:50 AM
Lowest Bidder, just like everything else in the govt supply system

paranoid
09-28-2011, 02:31 AM
The military doesn't use Glocks because of the perceived "lack of a safety" and of course big governments fear of liability!

BigEd63
09-28-2011, 06:30 AM
Just from my humble civiy experience with both Sigs and Glocks.

If it came down to use, not repair/maintenance, it would be a near draw with Glock edging out Sig.

The old west german marked 226s(2) and 220 were my two favorite none Glock models. Both consistant in trigger pull, not just from shot to shot but from pistol to pistol. Also very accurate and reliable. Have no personal idea how the newer Sig's are in quality.

My choice now for my needs is Glock.

Gabriel Suarez
09-28-2011, 06:36 AM
The military doesn't use Glocks because of the perceived "lack of a safety" and of course big governments fear of liability!

Actually quite a few units are in fact using Glocks.

Gun Mutt
09-28-2011, 06:40 AM
When I used to run the bars for some of the hottest nightclubs in Indy, I got to see the guys from Seal Team 8 every year when they came through Camp Atterbury for sniper work. Those boys work hard & party hard, so I was sure to see them eventually and I got to be friendly enough with them that they took me to their range to shoot some seriously fun stuff.

I once asked them why the Sig since most of them were carrying G19's in their civvies. They told me it was due to how easily they could strip the slide off the Sig, reassemble it & commence firing if it got gummed up from being submerged during a "swim." From their lips to my keyboard; always thought it was an interesting answer.

SUA SPONTE
09-28-2011, 06:57 AM
I have a fair amount of first hand experience in this dept.

In all honesty there is not all that much why or reason behind military acquisition for anything....when it comes to weapons systems it gets even more political with very much a top down approach.

The end users (operators) don't often have a great deal of real input on what gets selected. I have served on several source selection committees and nearly every time was surprised when logistical and budget personnel over ruled our findings, causing a project to go 180 degrees the other direction.

Is it right?......... No but itís the way it is.

Cheers
T

BigEd63
09-28-2011, 07:06 AM
When I used to run the bars for some of the hottest nightclubs in Indy, I got to see the guys from Seal Team 8 every year when they came through Camp Atterbury for sniper work. Those boys work hard & party hard, so I was sure to see them eventually and I got to be friendly enough with them that they took me to their range to shoot some seriously fun stuff.

I once asked them why the Sig since most of them were carrying G19's in their civvies. They told me it was due to how easily they could strip the slide off the Sig, reassemble it & commence firing if it got gummed up from being submerged during a "swim." From their lips to my keyboard; always thought it was an interesting answer.

That does make some sense to me to a point. Both with the size of the take down lever on the Sig and how things like the the recoil springs are. May make it quicker to take down and "de-gum".

austin
09-28-2011, 10:14 AM
The military doesn't use Glocks because of the perceived "lack of a safety" and of course big governments fear of liability!

This is it.

Dale Hunter
09-28-2011, 10:35 AM
Funny, because Glock sells a lot of 17,19,22, and 23 to military units (the ones you usually don't see on CNN). SO much so that they have a FDE colored frame to meet certain camo requirements of these units. I have seen them.

blackballed
09-28-2011, 10:40 AM
Well, I know why I use Glocks.

ericb
09-28-2011, 10:48 AM
Because that is what they are issued...... politics..... command decisions.... etc etc

Matman
09-28-2011, 01:20 PM
I think it has alot to do with a carry over as to why the rest of the Military has Berettas in thier holsters now. The Double Action 'safety' BS that was spewed alot back in the day (you still see it in the alot of places now). I knew one reason why this was an issue when an Officer told me he'd rather not load his handgun. I inquired as to the reason. He replied the liability was to much. I further inquired and his reason was the chances of himself having an ND was great than the chances of him shooting and hitting an attacker. I was baffled and just left the conversation with what little bit of intelligence I had originally!

I dont think the SIG is a bad handgun overall. I would prefer it to a beretta, but the Glock has been my personal handgun of choice. I am pleased to see Glocks taking a foothold in certain units (I think they are supperior), and have seen them out perform the others on numerous occassions!

Valvert Lucius Fox
09-28-2011, 05:51 PM
Lowest Bidder, just like everything else in the govt supply system

Yes, the Delaware State Police carry the Sig because they got a deal from the company they couldn't refuse. Paid off for Sig because many municipal departments got Sigs...just followed the leader.

Shdwdncr
09-28-2011, 08:07 PM
Actually quite a few units are in fact using Glocks.
Yes, over here every single SF guy I know carries a Glock.

S.

TheGrayMan214
09-28-2011, 09:12 PM
I'm right by Bragg so I know more than a few of the SF types.

The G19 has the NSN of 1005-01-571-9875 and most QP's I know carry one. Reasoning for their ODA's choosing them over the M9: Size/weight differences, Reliability, some shoot it better, some just got stuck with the other guys' choice.

Certain "other" units on Bragg get 22's or 23's with Trijicons up top.

chromechicken
09-29-2011, 12:37 AM
The Army, at least certain commands(USASOC, as far as I know), are comming around to Glocks. I was given a G19, and lots of guys here are carrying G19s, w/Trijicon NS. It's not that rare, and I'm not a member of CAG/ST6/task force ninja. I don't know where the decision came from, and really don't care. I'm OK with either the M9 or G19.

The STs use the Sig because somebody in the past decided that's what NSW would use for their pistol.

Jakob1944
09-29-2011, 11:04 AM
The military doesn't use Glocks because of the perceived "lack of a safety" and of course big governments fear of liability!


According to other sources that I have read.....

The US Gov does not use Glocks because Gaston Glock and Glock Ges. m.b.H. would not enter into an agreement that would allow the Gov to sub contract out the mfg of the pistol and the parts supply in time of war to meet the needs of the US Gov

TrojanSkyCop1
09-29-2011, 02:04 PM
I think it has alot to do with a carry over as to why the rest of the Military has Berettas in thier holsters now.

Speaking of Berettas, I recall reading that the inital reason that the SEALs had switched from Beretta to SIG back in circa 1989 was because a few of their guys were injured in training by some of the slide separation failures that the M9s were infamous for at the time. Even after Beretta fixed the problem of the faulty slides, the SEALs kept the SIGs.

Jeremy
09-29-2011, 03:33 PM
Speaking of Berettas, I recall reading that the inital reason that the SEALs had switched from Beretta to SIG back in circa 1989 was because a few of their guys were injured in training by some of the slide separation failures that the M9s were infamous for at the time. Even after Beretta fixed the problem of the faulty slides, the SEALs kept the SIGs.

A retired SEAL I knew was in the teams at that time and knew some of the guys. He then went and bought a Taurus PT-92 for cheap, served him well. When he was issued a Sig he sold the Taurus for more than he paid for it.

MikeNV
09-29-2011, 03:53 PM
I have a fair amount of first hand experience in this dept.

In all honesty there is not all that much why or reason behind military acquisition for anything....when it comes to weapons systems it gets even more political with very much a top down approach.

The end users (operators) don't often have a great deal of real input on what gets selected. I have served on several source selection committees and nearly every time was surprised when logistical and budget personnel over ruled our findings, causing a project to go 180 degrees the other direction.

Is it right?......... No but itís the way it is.

Cheers
T

I asked a friend of mine who was a Seal and now has his own company mostly teaching explosive entry....... he had exactly the same answer.

Winchester67
09-29-2011, 05:46 PM
Have you priced SIG magazines? With those prices, only the overspending Gub'ment can afford to support that platform!

Mike Heckathorn
09-29-2011, 06:50 PM
Have you priced SIG magazines? With those prices, only the overspending Gub'ment can afford to support that platform!
Not when you go to mec gar... But the glock is always the superior choice.

B+Shooter
09-29-2011, 07:10 PM
The original pistol tests back in the 1980's, the Sig beat out the Beretta, but whether the price, or the danger of losing the base in Siganella Italy- the Beretta was chosen. From what I was told, the ST's had the funds to chose the more expensive choice, so they went with the Sigs. Also, some other units/MOS's has the M-11 (Sig P228) issued as it's sidearm. I was so happy when I got to trade my M9 for an M11.

I would much rather have a Glock.

blackbag
09-29-2011, 08:58 PM
I remember reading an article a while back that the Beretta's were having problems with the slides cracking when a sound suppressor was attached. Also they experienced a few slide failures that resulted in Seals being injuried while on the range. I think before the Beretta's were dumped, the SEAL's even had an aftermarket slide(Phoebus, I think) built for the Beretta's.

Sasquatch
09-30-2011, 05:31 PM
I have a fair amount of first hand experience in this dept.

In all honesty there is not all that much why or reason behind military acquisition for anything....when it comes to weapons systems it gets even more political with very much a top down approach.

The end users (operators) don't often have a great deal of real input on what gets selected. I have served on several source selection committees and nearly every time was surprised when logistical and budget personnel over ruled our findings, causing a project to go 180 degrees the other direction.

Is it right?......... No but itís the way it is.

Cheers
T

Lot's of truth here.....mostly politics & someone up the food chain that decides....and they're usually not the most qualified to decide....the way it is. S.

9711
09-30-2011, 06:12 PM
Actually quite a few units are in fact using Glocks.

I can personally vouch for the fact that a very special group here uses Glock 17 and 19's. How can I be so sure you ask? I get to inspect and certify their ranges and arms rooms.:woot: You wanna be me.

FrankDude72
09-30-2011, 09:12 PM
The G19 has the NSN of 1005-01-571-9875

Quick off topic question.

With the Glocks made in Austria I would've made the Glocks get a different country code in the NSN.

Or are the issue G19s possessing frames made in Smyrna, GA? Hence the "-01-" designation?

Or are the issue ones possesing frames made in Smyra G

TheGrayMan214
09-30-2011, 11:05 PM
As far as I know, this is strictly what I was told by a kicker, all US DoD GLOCK's are made in Smyrna. His issued G22 is Smyrna made.

strider72
10-02-2011, 07:14 AM
As far as I know, this is strictly what I was told by a kicker, all US DoD GLOCK's are made in Smyrna. His issued G22 is Smyrna made.
All the info I have run across says only the frames are made here, EPA regs stop the Tennifer-coated slides and parts from being made here.

arizona
10-02-2011, 01:44 PM
Lowest Bidder, just like everything else in the govt supply system

Have you checked the price of a sig? Low bid is not the answer

William Carter
10-02-2011, 07:57 PM
Back when Beretta was 1st chosen for mil use some units that put a lot of rounds through handguns had a few catastropic failures with beretta. Cracked locking lugs, I believe. As I remember that had some influence on SEALs giong to Sig. Many did not like the beretta decocker that could be left on safe if not fliped back up. Sig actually barely edged out beretta in the original trails, and prices were very simular. The nod went to Italy for political reasons. Both are very good guns.

Some military cid guys carried sig 228 because of easy concealment.

Mike Heckathorn
10-02-2011, 08:24 PM
Back when Beretta was 1st chosen for mil use some units that put a lot of rounds through handguns had a few catastropic failures with beretta. Cracked locking lugs, I believe. As I remember that had some influence on SEALs giong to Sig. Many did not like the beretta decocker that could be left on safe if not fliped back up. Sig actually barely edged out beretta in the original trails, and prices were very simular. The nod went to Italy for political reasons. Both are very good guns.

Some military cid guys carried sig 228 because of easy concealment.
Air force osi still uses the 228 (and from the ones I have seen on the range, they need to be replaced). If you read the book "rogue warrior", many slide cracking problems were due to custom loaded ammo. Also talked to a gentleman that saw several slide failures that were attributed to using super hot israeli subgun ammo. His comment, "i could have told you they were going to break... That stuff would have destroyed most pistols with how much we were shooting them."... That being said, our rental 92fs goes though 2-3 locking blocks a year.. And we have destroyed one frame in my time with them.

TrojanSkyCop1
10-02-2011, 10:39 PM
That being said, our rental 92fs goes though 2-3 locking blocks a year.. And we have destroyed one frame in my time with them.

Out of curiosity, what's the typical round count between lcoking block failures on your rental Berettas? When I first in love with the 92F back in 1989, the rental range staffs told me it was a "6,000 round gun."

Fast forward to 2003, and the range guys were quoting 20,000+ round service life.

B+Shooter
10-03-2011, 04:34 AM
Air force osi still uses the 228 (and from the ones I have seen on the range, they need to be replaced). If you read the book "rogue warrior", many slide cracking problems were due to custom loaded ammo. Also talked to a gentleman that saw several slide failures that were attributed to using super hot israeli subgun ammo. His comment, "i could have told you they were going to break... That stuff would have destroyed most pistols with how much we were shooting them."... That being said, our rental 92fs goes though 2-3 locking blocks a year.. And we have destroyed one frame in my time with them.

You guys are spot on. Beretta was chosen to protect our airbase in Italy. I broke two locking blocks my first enlistment. When I changed Service/MOS I got issued a P228, and couldn't have been happier. My first civilian pistol was a Glock, I have been through lots of different "phases" of pistols, but alway come back to the Glock. I wish the military would get this one right and expand the field for pistols.

William Carter
10-03-2011, 07:56 AM
I'm glad you refreshed my memory, with that high pressure ammo. As I understood they modified the beretta a while back to solve this problem. As part of the Beretta contract, they had to agree to make most guns in the USA.

I've owned 3 beretta's and still have 2. 1, I wore out with cracked frame after about 16,000 rounds. The other 2, are newer models and even though I have a slight preference for glock, I love my beretta's. 1 is an "elite" model and the other is an M9. I change recoil springs after 4000 rounds of the 1 I shoot a lot, and always use wolff springs. I replace recoil/mag/trigger springs on all serious guns at regular intervals. Not that they necessarily need to be replaced, just that it is cheap insurance.

I'm not crazy about the da to sa transition, especially after getting used to my cc glocks, but my Beretta's are IMO as reliable as any handgun with the possable exception of glock. I love sigs too.

As somebody posted earlier, the military does not always do the best thing when arming the grunts in the field. Glocks are less expensive, and easier IMO to learn to shoot well, partly because the trigger is always the same. The govt probably will never issue glocks because in their "military mind" the glock would be to easy to shoot accidentally.

As I understand it the SEAL teams and a few other elite groups only answer to the potus so they can pretty much get which weapons they want, as long as they standardize.

1 of my shooting buds says the SEALs used to use HK 45's sometimes because 45's are easier to supress. My bud used to be in DELTA so I guess he knows.

I guess it's common knowledge since it was in popular mechanic and other pubs that the BAD BOYS who killed OBL, were using HK m4 type guns.

Replacement of springs and regular maintenence is what keeps most high quality guns working and helps to spot early small problems before they get big. Hot loads should be used for duty/defense and to be sure they function, not for high round counts, IMO.

Beretta is 1 of the oldest if not THE oldest company around, and still family owned, by the Beretta's.

Mike Heckathorn
10-03-2011, 08:36 AM
Out of curiosity, what's the typical round count between lcoking block failures on your rental Berettas? When I first in love with the 92F back in 1989, the rental range staffs told me it was a "6,000 round gun."

Fast forward to 2003, and the range guys were quoting 20,000+ round service life.

I am not sure on the round count (it's pretty had to keep track of)... But, if I were to venture a guess, under 20,000.

Chuck Meese
10-17-2011, 04:20 PM
Back when Beretta was 1st chosen for mil use some units that put a lot of rounds through handguns had a few catastropic failures with beretta. Cracked locking lugs, I believe. As I remember that had some influence on SEALs giong to Sig. Many did not like the beretta decocker that could be left on safe if not fliped back up. Sig actually barely edged out beretta in the original trails, and prices were very simular. The nod went to Italy for political reasons. Both are very good guns.

Some military cid guys carried sig 228 because of easy concealment.

I remember early on hearing about the slides cracking and separating causing facial injuries, which led to the saying.... "you're not a Navy SEAL until you've eatin Italian steel".

Big Phil
11-01-2011, 11:37 PM
The reason they choose the Sig, is becuase its one tough Gun. It will never let you down, either will a glock. Im leaning towrds a XD my self. had one when they first came out as the "XD". liked it, striped down ust like a sig, was just as light as a glock and more ergonomic than a sig or clock.

UrbanTiger74
11-02-2011, 01:04 AM
Yes, over here every single SF guy I know carries a Glock.

S.

Yup! I speak to a reserve SF guy via Facebook and he said his team carry Glocks.

Mossyrock
11-02-2011, 10:58 AM
Glad to hear the SF guys have upgraded. Last time I played with these guys, chasing War Criminals around Bosnia, they were carrying VERY worn out M9s. Those boys put some serious round counts through their M9s, and their armorer was kept very busy.

ISAFDOC
12-02-2011, 11:54 PM
I do know the PMO CID carry g17/19. Having shot many, many rounds with the M9 it is a great gun, a tad heavy and very reliable. The sig 226/229 are amazing nice balance between weight and fire power. The last 2 firms I worked for issued us a g17. They were not the FDE versions; however, a can of spray paint handles that nicely. Glock makes a fine weapon system. When it comes to price per unit the g17/19 can't be beat. It is why my firm uses them. I own 2 glocks a FDE gen 3 g17 and a gen 4 g19. I also own and have been issues many a Sig product. I personally prefer the p226; however, they are all fine guns.

At the end of the day, find a gun that fits you. Not what somebody's brother-in-law who knows a "kicker" or plays golf with a former SF type. Buy a solid gun that you can afford, can carry and are willing to train with. Because the most important opinion on the gun you shoot is your own.

Al Lipscomb
12-03-2011, 04:56 AM
In the world of government you pretty much use what you are told to. The reasons for a given tool being selected often has more to do with the way the bid was written than the needs of the users. Over the years I have talked to a lot of guys that have used their weapons, from knives to machine guns, to win the fight. The quality of the operator means a lot more than the brand of weapon.