Matters of Honour -- DUELING PISTOLS

[EDELWEISS]

Gentlemen ought to be able resolve differences as a matter of course; but there are times when matters of honour require more satisfaction. The duel was based on the notion of honour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour). The “Code Duello” was established to cover the practice of duels .

Not all duels were fought to kill the opponent, but rather to gain "satisfaction" or submission. Restoring one's honour was demonstrated by a willingness to risk one's life for the matter. Dueling was socially accepted, although often the matter was resolved without bloodshed, by means of a simple apology.

While other weapons were also used the concept of dueling led to the development of specialized pistols. Generally they were Flintlock of large caliber and smooth bore. Later Percussion lock versions were introduced. Bore sizes of 50 caliber and larger were common and were loaded with lead balls that could weight a half oz or more in larger calibers. Most dueling pistols had smooth bores, though some had "scratch rifling (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scratch_rifling&action=edit&redlink=1)" (a subtle form of rifling which was difficult to see with the naked eye). Rifled barrels were considered unsporting by many. Dueling Pistols were manufactured and sold in matched sets.

Hamilton -- Burr Pistols
http://www.icollector.com/images/1669/18901/18901_0114_1_lg.jpg

[Coolhand77]

NICE!
Hamilton talked the talked, but couldn't walk the walk...in otherwords, Don't pick a fight with someone expecting them to back down...the one time you are wrong will probably be the LAST time you are wrong.

[pmacaiman]

Dueling today would give us a better class of legislaturers, both state and federal. Recall under the rules of a duel kept some of them honest, some awake at night and a few didn't give a damn. But it gave 1000s of voters a chance to determine their depth of feeling about a law. Are you willing to get shot over it?

[bae]

I like the cut of your jib.

[blackballed]

Duels were also a great way to keep things between the two individuals and not involve other people. What's so wrong about that?

[caveman69]

My martial arts instructor was once challenged to a duel by a rival. He looked at me and said lock the doors. The guys attitude changed real quick when he realized he may not walk out unscathed. I for one am a firm believer in duels.

Jorge,
MiamiArnisGroup.com

[TNVolunteer]

I must agree with the general sentiment being expressed thus far about duels and matters of honor. Duels as a method of settling private disputes without the involvement of a government entity is an interesting concept. As asked above, "what's so wrong about that?", nothing in my mind from a moral standpoint however one should recognize that from a government's standpoint it is challenge to that entity's authority to be the arbiter of social disputes and thereby undermines to various extents its authority.

As to dueling pistols, I have been very fascinated with them for some time and have often thought of purchasing a set if for no other reason than it would be cool to own them. I've actually handled a pair of the Hamilton/Burr repros commissioned by the US Historical Society. Neat stuff.

TNV

[EDELWEISS]

The whole point of the "Code Duello" was in fact so it would in fact be regulated and remain between the two parties. Further the "Code" made room for numerous opportunities for both parties to resolve the matter prior to any actions.

Gentlemen should be able to disagree-agreeably; but when matters get out of hand, they need to be resolved-between those two parties. Duels, or rather the threat of duels prevented much of what today would be a "dis". Families passed cased sets of specially crafted pistols from father to son as instruments of honour.

First, dueling pistols were not the common pistols used for daily carry, nor were they pieces of art. They were finely crafted; but for a deadly cause. Generally 'duelers' were large bore (although the caliber could be part of the negotiation for the actual duel), many continued to use flintlocks well into the percussion period. Rifling and sights were usually not included. In fact shots were not 'supposed' to be aimed in the way we think of it today; but rather fired as the pistol was brought down and the shooter's index (trigger) finger moved across the target.

Next not all duels required shots being fired. Either of the parties could elect to offer an explanation for their act, and if accepted the duel would be called off, having been satisfied.

There were of course many gunsmiths building guns during the height of the dueling period; but a few became the TSD, Red Jacket, Rifle Dynamics, etc of their day. Woggdin, Twigg, Durs Egg etc were some of the best and turned out some beautiful sets.

Then as now, there appears to have been attempts at "rule beating". Scratch rifling was one attempt to "stretch" the intent vs letter of the rules; another was the use of "set" triggers. Remember the pistols were a set and belonged to one of the parties, or possibly borrowed for the occasion; in either case at least one of the parties was NOT familiar with how the gun he was using handled.

There has been some controversy over the missed shot in the Hamilton-Burr duel. Although Hamilton owned a set of duelers, he elected to borrow a set of pistols that would not normally be acceptable. The borrowed set had a "set" trigger that could be surreptitiously engaged without anyone noticing and change the trigger pull from 10lbs to 8oz. Hamilton would have known about this but not Burr. Hamilton fired early and missed Burr by some distance. This in and of its self was not uncommon in duels, as one party may elect to give up his shot as an offer of satisfaction (this however was NOT required in turn by the other party). Burr shot and stuck Hamilton, who died some 36 hours later. Hamilton did say after the duel that he never intended to shoot Burr; this may have been the case, but its also possible the exceptionally light trigger pull and the stress of mortal combat caused him to fire early by accident.

[Netpackrat]

Burr shot and stuck Hamilton, who died some 36 hours later. Hamilton did say after the duel that he never intended to shoot Burr; this may have been the case, but its also possible the exceptionally light trigger pull and the stress of mortal combat caused him to fire early by accident.

Thanks for the history lesson. It's really too bad that the above didn't take place a few years earlier than it did (like say, right about the time the constitution was ratified), because it would have resulted in the removal of both men from politics that much sooner.

[Gabriel Suarez]

I suspect having access to this today would make for a far more polite society...don't you think?

[ckmcconahay]

Does not some history lend credence to the fact that dueling was also adhered to by the challenged person being the one who got to chooose the method of dueling,ie Roosevelt and some Frenchman, who challenged him to a duel. Teddy being of poor eyesight choose shotguns and the frenchman backed down. There are other histoirical tidbits where men dueled with knives, swords, clubs and fists because that is what the challenged choose.

Help me out here brothers sometimes my memory anit too good concerning odd history facts. Dueling was not necessarily done with pistols?????

[Coolhand77]

I suspect having access to this today would make for a far more polite society...don't you think?

Absolutely. Would also keep the lawyers on a short leash [wait, I have to DUEL him if I get caught breaking the rules?!?]

[arizona]

Does not some history lend credence to the fact that dueling was also adhered to by the challenged person being the one who got to chooose the method of dueling,ie Roosevelt and some Frenchman, who challenged him to a duel. Teddy being of poor eyesight choose shotguns and the frenchman backed down. There are other histoirical tidbits where men dueled with knives, swords, clubs and fists because that is what the challenged choose.

Help me out here brothers sometimes my memory anit too good concerning odd history facts. Dueling was not necessarily done with pistols?????
You are quite correct. In the beginning it was conducted with swords.
Years ago I ran into a circular published by the Texas Historical Society (I think) Titled Bowie Knife Culture the book not only described Jim Bowies duels but talked about other dueling traditions. One of my favorites including dueling inside a grave dug for the purpose. Another dueling tradition took place sitting on fence post or log and required the contestants to each have one arm tied to his opponent. This duel frequently proved fatal to both contestants.
For a general history of dueling try Pistols at Dawn: A History of Dueling by John Norris

[Uppelman]

I'd choose hot air ballons and blunderbuses. It actually happened!

In 1808 two french guys,de Pique and de Grandpre, rose to 2000 feet in ballons and commenced firing at each others aircraft. Grandpre hit and Pique hurtled to his death along with his second.

[kabar]

Reminds me of one my favorite Mark Twain pieces.

The Great French Duel (http://twain.thefreelibrary.com/tramp-abroad/0-8)

[EDELWEISS]

Yep generally the accused gets the choice of weapons; but as I recall there are some restrictions to keep a giant from insisting on something that would clearly over power a smaller challenger. Even before Sam Colt the pistol equalized gentlemen.

Ive been researching the available recreated duelers. A few years ago (well more than a few) the Hamilton -Burr guns (owned by Chase Manhattan Bank) were carefully disassembled and recreated (thats how the set trigger was discovered) for the American Historical Society. They long since sold out; but occasionally a set turns up. Just last week a set went for over $1200 on Gunbroker.

Thankfully there are other options as ready made sets and custom smiths who KNOW what a dueler is and willing to show their best efforts for the right price. Perhaps the "Best" choice is to buy an original set. They turn up at antique gun shows pretty regularly at prices ranging from "reasonable to insane"; especially when you remember youre buying a lot of history-even if they were never used.

Here are just a few of the recreated ones. The prices range form $600 to $1500 each (kinda like a good AK) plus accessories of course.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/FH0231.jpg

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/FH0236.jpg

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/FH0316.jpg



Keep your AK ready for battle, keep your Glock close for intruders, and keep your duelers handy for Matters of Honour. These are three things you can pass on to your son.

[fate]

I learned a hell of a lot from this thread.

I didn't know about Hamilton's set trigger...

[Tracker]

I agree with Gabe, the herd would be a lot thinner if we could settle matters like men

I can think of a few who wouldnt leave the office again if this was the way of the land

[EDELWEISS]

I think its more than fair to say that most duels were settled without actually firing any shots. Gentlemen should be able to resolve their differences. The duel or threat of a duel is only one more step in the resolution process. The real difference is during the height of duels, being branded a coward was a heavy load; oday its almost a badge of honour...........

Remember its not about being the best shot or the fastest shot, its about being WILLING to stand and face and opponent, whos also WILLING to stand and face you.

[bae]

Then there's the amusing tale of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_d'Aubigny